How to Create and Sustain Excellence as a Leader with Ryan Hawk | Episode 104

Ryan Hawk: The way I I view this is like wha what is your life's work? and is the work the win or is there some outcome you're trying to get? like that that that's all you want is an outcome, I don't think it's it's sustainable. I don't think you're gonna have the juice to do it through the hard days. But if the actual work, the doing of the thing, whatever it is that you choose to be the thing in my case, it's writing books and recording podcasts and giving speeches and working with leaders. If the actual doing of the thing is the win, so the work is the win, then I think that will fuel you forever.

Chris Lee: Hello and welcome to the Parks and Restoration Podcast. I am Chris Lee, your host, and I've got Telly Van Rickey, the Director of Operations here at Parks and Restoration, co hosting with me today. Our guest this week is Ryan Hawk. For the past decade, he's hosted the Learning Leader Show, the number one business podcast on Apple, and certainly one of my favorite podcasts out there. And he's interviewed more than 700 leaders, more than a hundred of which are best selling authors. His guest list includes a bunch of my heroes, Simon Sinek, Jim Collins, and Adam Grant, Patrick Linchoni. In fact, Ryan has probably talked to most of the people that wrote the books behind me here if you're watching this on the video.

Ryan Hawk: Hmm.

Chris Lee: He's written four of his own, including his newest, The Price of Becoming, The Compounding Practices of High Performance. Ryan, welcome to Parks and Restoration.

Ryan Hawk: Thank guys for having me. It's good to be with you.

Chris Lee: Yeah. So I know you started the podcast originally be as a way of getting, as you said, a PhD in leadership. And that's a little bit of my interest in starting this too, is I get to talk to interesting people and and learn some stuff. So I'm just gonna jump right into this. I wanna I wanna pick your brain a little bit. I'm about to embark on the hiring process for a division manager position. So we've just had a a position open up here in Des Moines County Conservation where I work. And this is it's a leadership position. So this person's gonna be overseeing the entire field team. I've heard this framework of of people work as a job, a career, or a calling. And what are your thoughts on selecting for those that are that are called to the work? Because that's that's the position I find myself in, is that I'm called to do this conservation stuff. I'm called to do this leadership stuff in the conservation world. And where do you stand on on selecting for that?

Ryan Hawk: Well, it's ideal if you can. I think the hiring process is really, really hard. we all who have hired lots of people mess it up a lot. that's just that's just part of the deal. because people are inherently messy and we're always in process of trying to get better. and it's it's like one of the weird things that I've I've learned over the past eleven years and seven hundred of these conversations is We are literally all figuring it out as we go. some people are a little bit further along than others, but for the most part, we're still trying to figure it out as we go. So if you c if you can find somebody who feels called to it, I think that is incredible. and if you can find the right ways to ask questions through the interview process to try to understand them and get to know them as best as you can where it feels like that's what they're called to do. I I I think I think people would pay a lot of money if you can figure out how to do that. but you but certainly, yeah, I think when when hiring, if if at all possible, I w I would love to find people who who feel that calling to do it.

Chris Lee: What's been your experience with the hiring processes and asking better questions?

Ryan Hawk: I guess it it it's it's role dependent, but I mean ultimately what I'm trying to do w I mean I've hired for a a wide variety of roles. What what I'm trying to do though is is certainly that they have like the the compens competency part which has to be there of like can you do the actual job? But then I've tried really hard to reverse engineer what excellence looks like in the sp specific roles that I'm hiring for. So what are the attributes? What's the makeup of a person who has done excellently in this role before? What could it look like for one who's gonna do well in the future? And then the whole interview process is designed based on that. The biggest mistake I made early in my career is I I had no idea what I was looking for. I didn't even know what questions to ask. I rem I vividly remember my first management job. I was twenty-six. I was I went from sales rep to sales manager. And the guy that I worked for when I was a rep, I I I had an interview coming in to fill an open spot and I said, Dude, don't even, I'm not even sure what to ask these people. And he just forwarded me an email that was forwarded to him when he became a new manager of like a list of just like random interview questions. And so

Chris Lee: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Hawk: I printed that thing out and I'm just starting to kind of look at the list and just asking literally random questions with no rhyme or reason, no definition of what excellence looks like, just you know, hoping for the best, which is an awful strategy. if you

Chris Lee: Right.

Ryan Hawk: want to have good people. Now, I I I got kind of lucky in that I don't know, maybe there's a little intuition where you could feel if someone's gonna have the grit and the toughness and the resilience to to to kind of fight through the tough parts of the job that I was hiring for. but but yeah, as far as the process, it was it it was it was awful. So I think that to do it to do it well, clearly define what excellence looks like, then figure out what is needed in the interview process in order to give yourself the best chance to hire a person with those attributes. That's through the questions you ask, that's through role playing, that's through, I don't know, assignments between interviews for them to do work, actual work of the job as best you can. and then, you know, put that all those pieces of the puzzle together and hopefully you find somebody who who is gonna be really good in the job. But yeah, again, it's really, really hard. People, even the smartest people in the world mess it up quite a bit. but to me it's like what can I do to increase my odds as best I can? and that's a never ending project that I think we're all regularly on.

Chris Lee: Yeah, for sure. I like this concept of of asking better questions. And

Ryan Hawk: Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: I know that's, you know, big for you. You're well known as a fantastic interviewer. and you know, you've put in the reps for sure. You know, you got seven hundred well seven hundred and two episodes out as of today. I was just listening to seven two today. what have you learned through the process of doing these interviews of yeah, I mean surely early on you your your approach was a little bit different than than what it is now. What have you learned through this process of how to really get at a person as to as to who they really are? That's one of the things I really like about your show is that it's not just these canned questions, right? And and you really like I listen to your show and I'm like, man, I I really fucking know that person now after listening to this. How have you how have you developed that and and where could a person take and apply that even beyond being a podcast interviewer?

Ryan Hawk: I think one of the key words that I've gotten better at is specificity. So when you're preparing for an interview, preparing to host somebody on a podcast, it's thinking of specific moments, people, and stories in their life. if they've written books, you'll you'll find these things in them. If you look at for example, if you want to find people that are important to an author, read the dedication and read the acknowledgments. I always start the acknowledgments. I t I take a look at the dedication. that's where you'll find people that are really important to them. And I think it helps warm a person's heart if you talk about somebody they love early and often. it can't be the whole podcast 'cause like it's not about just people they love and their mom or their wife or whatever, but

Chris Lee: Sure, yeah.

Ryan Hawk: But but it can be a good place to get them going. And sometimes a really key learning can come from from that as well. and then when it comes to specificity around stories, it's I mean, i i it sounds like you know, you listen to the show, so I I I look through their books or anything I can find on the internet and find specific stories that I will surface and sometimes tell the very, very beginning part of it and then have them finish. as well as share the key learning. The next part is there is always gold in there. And as the interviewer, it's your job, if you want to be good, to mine every single answer for the gold, to be listening and it actively, so active listening, which most people aren't built to do. so it's a skill you have to develop. And then ask the follow-up question based on something they said. So before every interview I talk with the people on my show and I'll say, look, I have a set list of ideas, a bunch of bullet points and stories and specific people that I may bring up. But the majority of the questions I have no idea what they're going to be because it's going to be based upon you saying something, me actively listening, and then asking a follow-up question based on something you said. And that's the fun part for me because you can't

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: script it. At least not the way I do it. You can't script it. You can't predict it. You don't know where it's gonna go. You may hit a big chunk of your set list. You may hit ten percent, which happens a lot with with mine. If I write four pages of notes of an outline with stories and ideas and people and potential ways we can go, there are times where we hit almost none of it based on

Chris Lee: No.

Ryan Hawk: something they said and it just went in a different direction. That doesn't work for everybody. Not everybody likes to do it that way. Some people like to be more scripted. They don't like asking follow-up questions because they want to hit the ones that they had planned. Like I think Tyler Cowan is a really good interviewer, but he doesn't really ask any follow-up questions. They're all based on his script of what he wanted to get. And that works for some people. that wouldn't be that fun for me, because in all of my conversations in life, whether I'm recording them or not, they're gonna be full of follow up follow-up questions. And that just makes it more interesting because I can chase down my curiosity with great rigor. That's what I want to do for a living. That's what's most fun. so that's how I've designed my podcast. And fortunately, you know, other people seem to like that as well. So that gives me the opportunity to like do this thing as an actual my life's work as a as a business. So yeah, I'm grateful for that. It's it's certainly has evolved. If you listen to some of the early episodes, there, I mean they're brutal. They're brutal

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: to get through them. And there are little moments where like, that was pretty good. You know, like little moments mixed in with a bunch of cringe. Like it's really tough. So but that's a good sign, right? Like you should look back at your old work and go, God, what was I doing? Because that's that's kind of a sign

Chris Lee: Right.

Teli Van Rycke: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: of growth. So I'm kind of shocked people listen to them in the beginning when I go back. when I really think about it and they like actually complimented me on it, but I'm like, man, I listened to it now and that sounds awful. So yeah, I I I guess maybe we're all just getting a little smarter, but but yeah, I th that that's the sign of growth when when you look back and and kind of shake your head at some of your stuff.

Chris Lee: Right, yeah. Well, I mean that's that's the price of becoming, right? Is is you gotta you gotta do them shitty first drafts and y you know, you gotta you gotta pay your

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Lee: dues. I was just telling Telly, I don't know, here a week or so she was gonna said she was going back and gonna listen to the the entirety of of this podcast. And I'm like, I don't I don't really know that you wanna do that. Like

Ryan Hawk: How many episodes is it now?

Chris Lee: we just recorded the hundredth here last week. So yeah.

Ryan Hawk: Nice. So when you listen to the early ones, are are you like, I don't know, like what how do you feel?

Chris Lee: a ba I o I almost can't listen to I like 'cause I mean I had no idea what I was doing. You know, like I'm just gonna I'm

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, yeah.

Chris Lee: just gonna create a podcast, you know, and and I mean so the audio is terrible. I know like one of the first ones I did, I didn't have any microphone equipment or anything. And so I just I had like these lapel mics that worked with my iPhone and I I I had a Bluetooth speaker and and I had the person I was interviewing, he was streaming through that Bluetooth speaker and I just stuck that microphone in front of the speaker and recorded it that

Ryan Hawk: Ha ha ha.

Chris Lee: way. I mean it i it worked. I I got the I got it recorded, but you know, you just you you figure shit out as you go, right? Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah. It's exactly right. That's exactly

Teli Van Rycke: And having listened

Ryan Hawk: right.

Teli Van Rycke: to them I can totally relate to what you're saying. Like, yeah, the sound quality is poor, but there's some really good nuggets in there and some gold, like you said, that you can still mine for, so

Ryan Hawk: Love

Chris Lee: Yeah. So

Ryan Hawk: it. Love it.

Chris Lee: what was your process then? And and again, we're just exploring my curiosity here. So what was your process then of of you know, you start out and and you know, you gotta start somewhere and and you learn as you go. How did you how did you develop the ability to to ask these questions and and was it always just I'm just gonna follow my curiosity and and you know, go down these side trails if I want to, or is that something you cultivated over time and something you built over time as you built out the podcast or went back and listened to episodes?

Ryan Hawk: So it's always been my own personal leadership PhD program. I mean, that's why it started. I got my MBA and did not love the process of getting my MBA. It took six years, I was working full time. you know, it was hard. I'm an organizational communication undergrad degree, so I had to take some prereqs just to get in to the business school to get my my MBA. it just took forever. I hired tutors. And was like, I but my but my company reimbursed me for that. So I I should go back to school because they'll they'll reimburse me for any education. Like that's what I should be doing. but just I don't love the fact that they tell me you gotta go with this teacher and take this class in order to get this certification. So why don't I just create my own program? So the show has always been for me first. it's me search. I'm I I'm doing research for myself to get better as a leader. I certainly am aware of the listeners and I'm hopeful that it it's helpful for them, but it starts with my curiosity, what what I'm interested in. And you guys have probably seen this now that you got a hundred of them. Like you'll start having PR people and all these others reach out trying to be to be on your podcast. and and it it gets out of control most days and and the To me though, like I have to have a person on that I'm deeply curious about them and enough so that I want to do a a lot of research to prep and and build that set list and outline for that conversation and then actually have the conversation with them and chase what I'm most curious about. I found that I enjoy doing it that way the most and it seems like it resonates really well with other people too. So Yeah, I mean, I I I would say it's it's always an evolution though. I mean, it if you listen again at the beginning, it's more of it's a probably a little bit more scripted. there's set questions. I do think it's kind of cool to ask some similar questions from time to time, like but those evolve as well. Like now I ask the champagne question at the end of episodes, which I didn't used to do. I only did that privately at the dinners I would host, and now I do it publicly on the show. I used to always ask about commonalities of sustain sustainable excellence. I don't ask that very much anymore. I'm still curious about it and it may pop up from time to time. So, you know, that stuff kind of evolves o over time when it comes to like the questions I ask or or the way I approach each guest.

Chris Lee: Yeah. The you bring up the champagne question. I so I have to follow up on this. I I think you you credit that to to somebody else that you you kind of stole it from. I don't remember their name, but what okay,

Ryan Hawk: Jason Gaynard, yep. Yep.

Chris Lee: so why that question? Like like what what do you get because I I recognize

Ryan Hawk: Mm.

Chris Lee: having done a some of these shows now, there's value in asking the same question over and over and and seeing the different responses. Why why that question?

Ryan Hawk: Because high performers struggle to celebrate. So that's one that's one one reason. they do. I also

Chris Lee: Yeah. They struggle to answer that question a lot of times I've noticed.

Ryan Hawk: think it's cool now. We keep track of all the answers. So we have

Chris Lee: Okay.

Ryan Hawk: a spreadsheet of every guest and every answer, the champagne question. so we will follow up with everybody after that year is up. So the question just to get it out there is you're surrounded by all the people you love and you're popping bottles, you're spraying champagne or grape juice or whatever. all over everybody. What are you celebrating? And so it it that usually makes people pause because I don't tip them off that I'm gonna ask it. some of my guests have listened to the podcast so they they know it's coming. But I I am curious to see like what is the top priority for them. What's the achievement they want. Some people go family, some people go business, some people do a little bit of both. I I'm interested to see if they're they're willing to celebrate or if they can celebrate and if they have like a a top level goal or a big thing they're striving for, especially like because we have a this all was built with a plan to help celebrate them in a year if they've accomplished the thing that they want to accomplish. So it's not just for the podcast, it's also for a way for me to connect with the guests a year from now. So I've always wanted to play long-term games with long-term people and paying attention and celebrating with people I think is a fun thing to do. So there is a little bit more to it than just hearing what they're gonna say. It's a way to connect with them. and and hopefully like also get listeners to want to celebrate a little bit more about things because it's something that a lot of us struggle to do. So I've had a lot of fun with it. It's I enjoy it. I've been asking it at asking that question at my dinners for eight years. and then one of my coaches, Sherry Cole, said, Why don't you ask that on the podcast? And I said, I don't know, I I never thought to. And she said, Well, I don't know, why don't you try it? And so I did. And I liked it. And so now we keep now I do it pretty much every time.

Chris Lee: Yeah. Yeah. it's

Teli Van Rycke: That

Chris Lee: it's a interesting question. And I I remember when I I first started listening to your show and I heard that and I'm like, that seems like a random question to to bring up at the at the end of a show, but I you're you're totally right that high performers do often struggle to celebrate stuff. You know, it's like, we got that done. All right, on to the next thing. Like let's let's go, let's go, let's go. And it forces that pause. The other thing that I notice, yeah.

Ryan Hawk: Yep. I also, by the way, have a I got a bottle of champagne from my first book, Welcome to Management, which was published in twenty twenty and from my book agent. And it's still there and it's still sitting in my c I I don't really drink champagne, but it it's it it's it's that's beside the point. Like it's still sitting in my my you know, up in a cabinet. And so I was like, I'm I I struggle with this. So I I I want

Chris Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: to see like I I'm getting better though. I'm I'm getting better, but but that's it's taken a lot of intentional effort and my wife Miranda has helped a ton, but we're getting better at it. But yeah, it it it's something I've definitely struggled with. So that's that's also why I like to ask it.

Chris Lee: Yeah, yeah, that's good. And the other the other thing that I'm seeing here is that it it kind of humanizes the guest a little bit. You know, it's one thing that to ask about their their new book or their leadership philosophies and and and get into the the hows and the what's. But like you said earlier, asking them about a a a story about somebody they love. Or, you know, then this question of like it's a year from now, you're surrounded by the people that you love, what are you celebrating? Like it it brings that human element in and they're you know, they're not just some, you know, faceless author or something like that. And so I I I think that's one of the things that really resonates with me. and one of the things that that I really like about your show is that I i it just it it's very intentional about that. And it it it makes me feel like, yeah, this man, I I get to know this person. So speaking of people that you yeah.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah. Yeah,

Teli Van Rycke: You mentioned you mentioned your champagne question and your theme of connection and your book you talk about and how you did all of those things and of course the theme is perpetually being uncomfortable to grow and so I just wonder like is that really hard for you? Is it is it gotten easier over the years that you keep putting yourself in these uncomfortable positions or do you still find yourself having to feel the same uncomfortableness to push through that and navigate?

Ryan Hawk: For sure. I mean, so I have end of the day prompts, that I think is useful for everybody to have. You'll see reflection questions in the book, which is a version of this. But end of the day prompts for me, there's three of them, which is what did I do today to go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up, which is the Charlie Munger quote. The second one of those is what did I do today to push my edges? And the third one is what did I do today to add value to somebody else's life? The second one is is kind of hitting on your question, what did I do? Today to push my edges. Pushing my edges is kind of like my sticky language to remind myself to be uncomfortable, to do things that like are a little bit beyond my my current zone of comfort and competency. And I wanna have an answer at the end of every single day for all three of those. And I think the pushing your edges one could be the toughest one because if you're not intentional, you will go through every day just just optimizing for comfort when I am trying to optimize to push the edges every day so that if you you then you understand the power of compounding and how that happens. If you just stack day after day after day of continuously adding value to somebody's life, going to bed a little bit wiser and pushing your edges. I mean, I like your chances of accomplishing whatever the goal is you've set over the course of a long period of time because you've stacked all those days. of of doing the little things that add up to a really, really big thing. So yeah, I I I work to do that. I mean the p my podcast helps a lot because when I when I interview somebody who's far wiser than me and is and has left a big dent positive dent in the world, I mean, that pushes my edges. That that that I still get nervous. I still give that that like anticipatory feeling before like I I did before when I played sports. I I want to do a good job. I w I wanna like honor them. I wanna shine a a bright light on how great they are. you know, it's not a guarantee. Like it doesn't happen by accident. I want to make it look easy. and I think if it does, that means I'm doing a good job. Like a stand up comedian who who just kind of wanders out on stage and and tells random jokes. That's obviously

Teli Van Rycke: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: not what they do, but that's what they make it look like. I'm trying to have that type of effect. and so that just takes a lot of prep and a lot of work and that's pushing my edges. So It's still very real for me. I still try to do it literally every single day. not perfect. I mess up all the time, but but that's that's a a big goal of of mine is to have those end of the day prompts have a specific answer for for each of them.

Teli Van Rycke: Wonderful. Thank you. That's awesome.

Chris Lee: So I I want to you talk about you know being surrounded by by people that you love. Before we we hit record, we were talking about the fact that you just dropped your daughter off at college. And I know that's gotta be a big thing for a dad. I'm a dad myself. so I know you've you've raised kids and you were active in their sports growing up. You you coach their teams, you you PA announced volleyball games. so what are you doing now and or what have you done Over time to cultivate excellence in your kids. Because here's where I'm at. So I I got a boy that's eight and he absolutely lives for soccer. Like, like he the I we probably have no less than 20 soccer balls in this house. He sleeps with a soccer ball. He gets home from school and he's kicking the soccer ball around the house. He's out in the yard kicking the soccer ball. Like he just absolutely lives for it. And so, like, I I want to cultivate this in him. And like, you know, he he says he wants to be the best. But I also recognize that there's a there's a line there that if you push too hard, you run the risk of squashing that fire a little bit. How have you navigated that and and what's what have you done with your kids that worked or didn't that cultivates excellence in them?

Ryan Hawk: Well, it sounds like with your son that you don't have to push at all, which is awesome, right?

Teli Van Rycke: Ha ha.

Chris Lee: Sure, yeah.

Ryan Hawk: I think in the case like that, my youngest daughter is also into soccer and volleyball, and flag football. And so, of all of them, she sh she's the one that we we we we definitely don't push. My parents didn't push us. My brother and I, and and we we played sports growing up, all of the sports and you know, college scholarships and all that stuff. but To me, like if they show that they're committed and they want to do it, then I I'm very supportive of of of i if you need extra if you want to choose extra work, I'll I'll I'll be a I'll be a part of that or I'll even get somebody who's better than me at the sport as far as a coach and have them play a role in doing extra coaching. I think that's great. but certainly never pushing and also I think the the language we use is is super important when it comes to if you're talking about sports. we're very, very focused on attitude effort and being a great teammate, on picking a teammate up when they're down and on celebrating somebody else when it goes really well. I think that's critical. because that's also gonna be a portable skill for life. I mean, look at you guys. You you're your teammates, right? You all of life is collaborating with other people. And so sports can be a great place to learn how to work well with others, especially if they're different from you or i that's why college football was so big for me because it like everyone's from a different socioe economic background. They had different belief systems and yet we're coming together for a common goal to try to play really w really, really hard and and win. I learned so much through both winning and losing. So yeah, I think sports is a great way. As far as just in general as a human, I think how I treat their mom is everything. I mean I think that's how I I I I that especially with girls, I mean th to me showing respect and love and care and cringe moments where they cr they cover their eyes. Like all that stuff's very intentional and very important. We laugh, but like

Chris Lee: That yeah.

Ryan Hawk: it's not like it's it's real. writing love notes, treating her with with with deep respect. Same way with like playing games when we go to Chipotle, looking the person who fixes your bull in the eye and and saying thank you and thank you and thank you and thank you. You know, like just little things like that that show gratitude to people. Like we're not better than anybody else. We're treat We treat the person who cleans up the trash the exact same as we treat the CEO. leadership

Chris Lee: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: is caught more than it's taught. And I think we have my wife Miranda and I have to be the models for what this like the standard we want them to to live up to without hopefully having to say that much. So it's just living it and doing it and just being about it and then just being really, really present. Yeah, you know, FaceTiming with my daughter last night, it's really tough when you drop them off at college, it's like man. And I want to just call her like all the time and text her all the time and

Chris Lee: Yeah. Oof. Yeah.

Teli Van Rycke: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: whatever. But I know that's not what she that that's not what's best for her. Like I she needs to kind of have some freedom to go and explore and be with her roommate and their new friends and figure things out. So like yeah, it killed me just to wait a few days to FaceTime.

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: but you know, I thought like I don't want to bug her too much and I I want her to kind of figure things out. So when we did connect though, like it was the it was like It was the best. It was just the

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: best feeling ever to see her smiling and hanging with her roommate and just having a good time and finding the good place to get the protein shake, which happens to be at the rec center. That's a 10-minute walk from her dorm. You know, like little things like that,

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: like, dude, it's the best. So yeah, I don't know if that answered your question, but but

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: I think just trying to be as present as possible, understanding we're the model first and foremost. And then if they show a deep passion for something. I'm all in with them. Like I'll support I'll I'll get coaching. I'll I'll be playing goalie or

Teli Van Rycke: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: or or or or the one to give across so they can try to, you know, score, whatever. I I

Chris Lee: yeah, yeah.

Ryan Hawk: I try to like be there. My dad always did that for us. he still tries to do it for us, even though he's not as athletic

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: as he used to be. but but yeah, I I I we we try as as hard as possible to be really, really present and understand that we're the standard, we're the model that they're seeing every day.

Chris Lee: Yeah. The one of the things from the book, that stood out to me is this this concept of a hundred shots a day. And and this I mean well, I mean, just the whole theme of the book is is cultivating excellence over time, right? The compounding effect of of you go out there and and you take those hundred shots a day. And so like like my boy likes to go out and and you know, he just he just wants to launch the ball as hard as he can. But I'm like Okay, if you're gonna be excellent at soccer, you're gonna have to work on the fundamentals, like like the dribbling, the the passing, the that that boring stuff that isn't so fun, it isn't so flashy. And so like I I don't know like how hard to push of like, okay, man, like if you do really wanna be great at this, it's a you know, it's a hundred shots a day. It's it's it's a hundred yards every day of dribbling the ball back and forth. It's you know, it's it's that it's that routine stuff that an eight year old just is not gonna want to do. and if you know, frankly, I'm gonna have a hard time modeling because I don't wanna do it. Like I have zero interest in soccer. I you know, I

Ryan Hawk: Yeah.

Chris Lee: didn't even realize that was an American sport. so I just and you know, and this goes to teams too. Like it's it applies to your workplace or you're to anybody as a leader of like how do you like where's the line of of pushing that of like you know, doing the hundred shots a day or like like Telly gets up at like three in the damn morning and goes and works out every single day. Like I I I can't absolutely do that. so like I'm just wondering, you know, if you if you've seen the line there of of pushing for that kind of discipline, versus just letting someone kind of play to their natural passions, whether it's in workplace or in kids or whatever.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah. Well again, I think they'll you are the model for the work ethic they see. It doesn't have to be with sports, it's just in general. I think you hear athletes talk about their mom and their dad, about the way they worked, not necessarily played a sport, but w like how how hard they got after it, how dedicated they were, the people around them, the way they talk about mom and dad. I think you can sense that. Again, if a kid though has a deep passion for something, especially a sport like soccer, like you and I have kids at play, but we aren't soccer players. that's when I would look for outside help. I would find people. We found a girl who plays for locally for a professional team and and then got a couple of Charlie's my youngest one who plays soccer. We got a couple of Charlie's teammates and there's four of them now they work with this professional who it's a girl, so they relate to her better than me. She's she's pretty young. She's in her like early twenties and they go and they do all of that fundamental work. and she works with them beyond the stuff that I would do because I don't even know what to what to talk about when it comes to the specifics. I do know fundamentals as a quarterback and I know fundamentals as a as a point guard and know fundamentals as a baseball player, right? But that's not the sports we're talking about. So let's find somebody who does. And if that's what they want to do, I'm not making them do it, but if that's what they wanna do then then then go do that. So he might be a little young, I don't know. But but at some point maybe as he gets a little older, that would be stuff that you put You do, but I th I I believe in coaches for everything. I believe in coaches for life, for business, for leadership, for relationships. Like I I you know, it it seems to be a commonality among leaders who have sustained excellence, is they are they all hire coaches for a lot of stuff. And because they realize the value of expertise, of mastery, and they want to be around that because they know it'll help them be better. So, Yeah, I I think when in doubt, like if if if you want somebody to work on fundamentals or other things that maybe you don't have an interest in or you don't know about, then you know, bring in somebody else to help. in addition to you just living

Chris Lee: Mm. Yeah, I like that.

Ryan Hawk: living to the standard of work ethic and excellence that you want them to see every day, because that can that can be a portable lesson for them beyond like, hey, my mom or my dad work really hard in the gym or at their job or with people I see the way they care for

Chris Lee: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: them. I think that can be portable to other things.

Chris Lee: Yeah. I I yeah, I like that. I mean, and that would apply to the workplace too of you know, somebody that that wants to get there, you know, if if if you don't have the capacity to do that, connect with a coach, connect with a mentor. And I know you've talked a lot about mentors in your books and and things like that. So no, that's I I like that. I I it makes me feel like I I actually maybe did something right 'cause he wanted to he wanted to play fall soccer this year and and there's like the rec league and then there's the The like it's called the Southeast Soccer Academy. And like these are like the real coaches. The rec league is like whatever dad was available to coach the team. And so we we signed him up for the actual soccer academy because these are like paid coaches and they know what the hell they're doing and and and I wanted to give him, you know, an actual real coach and and not just whatever dad had the afternoon available. And so maybe I'm I did something right, parenting. Woo

Ryan Hawk: Yeah.

Teli Van Rycke: Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: Maybe. Guess we'll find out. So I wanna I wanna shift over to, you know, we're so we're talking about learning here a little bit. I'm gonna pass this one over to Telly about being a learning leader. She's got a question. I'm gonna let her run with this.

Teli Van Rycke: All right, Ryan. as a former English teacher, I want to talk to you a little bit about your analogies and maybe focusing on the learning leader. your podcast, obviously, it has a metaphor, and you're always a learning leader. and I'm a new learning leader, and so I think there's a lot of people that are listening and that are in the Parks and Rec area who are struggling to be that learning leader. Like they're really good at their craft, they've got it figured out, and maybe they were appointed to a position because they're really good at their job. But now how do they become a leader and so lately when something really like gets me excited about becoming a better leader or when I'm reading your book and I'm thinking about a theme that I'm going to come up with for the next year which mine by the way is going to be influence how I can influence people positively that's gonna be my word but anyway how do we Okay, contain our excitement. So I get really excited. I get jazzed up. Chris does too. I'll text him and I'll be like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it today. I might have a heart attack because I'm so excited about the stuff that we're doing or that I'm learning. So how can people in their roles, whether it's us or you know, nonprofit leaders or parks leaders, how can we take that excitement and really channel it, that energy into like lasting growth and action?

Ryan Hawk: For others or for yourself?

Teli Van Rycke: Well, for yourself, but so others can benefit.

Ryan Hawk: I mean The way I I view this is like wha what is your life's work? and is the work the win or is there some outcome you're trying to get? like that that that's all you want is an outcome, I don't think it's it's sustainable. I don't think you're gonna have the juice to do it through the hard days. But if the actual work, the doing of the thing, whatever it is that you choose to be the thing in my case, it's writing books and recording podcasts and giving speeches and working with leaders. If the actual doing of the thing is the win, so the work is the win, then I think that will fuel you forever. But if it's some outcome that you're seeking, I don't know if that's that fuel is is is gonna burn forever. I think it's it's it could be short term. This happens, I've noticed when I've helped others. they either want to write a book or record a like get a podcast going or something like that. a lot of people get started. They're like, cause it's fun. It's exciting to do something new. Like, I have these big ideas of what I want my podcast or my book or whatever to be. What happens, those people kind of quietly disappear after a little bit because they're a little embarrassed that they're going to quit. it's hard and and and usually when I've figured out like why they quit, it's because they wanted some sort of outcome and they weren't getting it. Instead of the actual thing being the win. So now wh whenever a somebody asks me to help them with their podcast, I'll my first question is, why do you want to do this? What's the point? And if they say, I want to get more speaking gigs, I want to get a book deal, I want to be a little bit more famous, I want to get coaching clients, then I'll say, Hey, I'm Happy for you, but you're going to quit the podcast because you're not gonna get those things right away, if ever. if you do, that would

Teli Van Rycke: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: be awesome, but you would be an anomaly. But

Teli Van Rycke: Mm.

Ryan Hawk: the I think the way to to get all those things is to love the craft of doing the thing. And then all of that other stuff just happens as a result of you loving the craft of the thing. That includes guest selection and preparation. And develop developing better listening skills and better follow up question asking skills, like all of these things that plays a big role. And then all of the outcomes. So whatever the thing is, again, I'm using my a podcast as an example, but this could be any, anything. Whatever it is, I think developing a love for the actual work. Like Peyton Manning, he played quarterback, one of my guys I really look up to as a quarterback. He took every single rep in practice. He never took a rep off in practice because he loved the process of preparing for the game. He loved the work. The work was the win for him. Now he loved playing games too, and he was great and he won a bunch of games. But he said the second that I stopped loving that part, I had to walk away. And I think the same is true for a lot of stuff. Like if you want to be truly excellent at the thing, then I I believe you that actual work, the craft of it has to has to be the win.

Teli Van Rycke: I think that's excellent advice. And we actually just had that conversation with Matt Dody on episode ninety eight. And he talks about, you know, new people walking in and they see Peyton Manning doing all of the stuff and they're not gonna do it, no way. he he wouldn't, you know, allow that. They wouldn't feel comfortable. So he's a great role model. Awesome.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah. Toss him.

Teli Van Rycke: That really is a great segue into my next question, Ryan. I'm a huge football fan. When I've opened your book for the first time and I read that you played college football and that, you know, I I had to search who was the quarterback that you know took your starting spot. And when I found out it was Ben Rothesberger, of course, that's that was crazy to me. I've the commissioner of my fantasy football league for a decade now. I just I love football. I love Peyton Manning. Anyway,

Ryan Hawk: That's awesome.

Teli Van Rycke: I'm I'm a huge fan of all of that. Everything football. But I think that you know it's really important. It hit me because I'm in this transition right now and becoming this leader that I want to be and I'm really jazzed about it clearly. And your story. As an English teacher, you know, just starting with the football. It's a small little nugget that you just turned into such a huge resource for everyone. And really my question is, how is someone in nonprofit world or in any role really or becoming a leader, how do they take competition from someone, whether you know they're close with that person or it's you know in another city or in their organization, and how do they use that productively to improve themselves

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, I mean, i I think that's a very nuanced one, because there's like ends of the spectrum that could be good or bad. But on i if if you're in constant comparison mode to a competitor, I don't think that's good. But if you act like they don't exist or they're they don't exist, I don't know if that's great either. There's probably like a a a middle ground where some of that competition can breed excellence because you have a rival or you have someone to to battle against. I I know it it it forced me to up my game playing playing it next to someone who was who was really, really good at the thing that I was doing. and so I I I I try not to compare because it could get you down. It could be the thief of joy. We all know that. But I think it can be useful to see excellence up close and personal and to see like what it is that they do and study it and see if there's things that you can take from others that you can learn from what they do or how they approach whatever it is that they're doing. so I I think it's like surround yourself with with high, high performers, high achievers. Try to learn as much as humanly possible, be a good person, right? Ask questions, be curious, build

Teli Van Rycke: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: relationships with people. and then do your best. Like it's it's interesting. I was just watching Hard Knocks when I was with my wife at lunch before we connected today. And Mike McDaniel and Robert Salah were doing a joint practice, the Seahawks and the Titans. And it was obvious, like their head coaches competing against each other. They're doing joint practice before a preseason game. And but they were like super like helpful and curious and kind. and they're certainly competitors, like It's a cutthroat world.

Teli Van Rycke: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: and you gotta win or you get fired instantly. And yet you could see like this

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Teli Van Rycke: Literally.

Ryan Hawk: yeah, yeah, you could see like this mutual respect and sharing of ideas and conversations and stuff like that. So I I I think you can approach it that way and and still realize there's like there's enough out how out in the world for us all to win. And in my case as a quarterback, it's a lot different than the real world because quarterback play on a team It's very, very black and white. One guy plays, that means nobody else gets to play if you're a quarterback. In the real world, that's not how it works. Like if I win and you win, that's awesome and it's very possible. The it the more I win, it'll be better for you. And the more you win, it'll be better for me. Because we're both on each other's like platforms now. And so if I

Teli Van Rycke: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: do really well, you're like, yeah, he was on my podcast, right? If you guys do really well, I was on that podcast, you know? So

Teli Van Rycke: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: like it it's just not at all like quarterback play where only one person gets to win and everyone else has to lose. In the real world, we all can can win. it's not zero sum. And so I think that's how I try to approach it now. But it definitely took me some years to get over that. Get because I I I played in that zero sum game since I was five, right? And then I and

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: then I didn't finish playing until after my arena football career, you know, a couple of years after college. So it took a it took a long time to move beyond the kind of like, if I win that means you guys have to lose. And if you win, that means I lose. Like that's that is not how the real world works. But in my case, like I did grow up with with a lot of that aspect being being part of my life.

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Teli Van Rycke: I really like the idea that we can all win. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: It's true. I mean I mean I you know, my mind changed. I read Adam Grant's book called Give and Take and that that had a

Chris Lee: yeah.

Teli Van Rycke: huh.

Ryan Hawk: big effect on me because I was still in that world of I win, you lose, you win, I lose, and and that scientifically that just isn't true. It only is it true and in like really small segments of the world and and and quarterback play happens to be one of those, but so many others it's it's it's not the case at all.

Chris Lee: Yeah. I so in in the speeches that I do and some of the leadership training that I do, I weave in these ecological concepts. So I'm fascinated by this idea of what are the what are the universal truisms or you know, what are the universal principles at play that also manifest in the human world? And one of the things that I've noticed in in the natural world, competition it does exist and and you we're we're taught from early on that you know survival of the fittest and it's you know if if if I'm to survive then then you can't. But it doesn't that's not actually true. That that's actually more true in in less mature ecosystems. So you know I I'm here in the Midwest, I'm here in Iowa, you're an Ohio guy so you understand the Midwest. So if you go out and just you know till up an acre of ground just to bear dirt and you you walk away from it, you're gonna get a bunch of weeds and stuff and you have a bunch of competition in there. Leave that thing for a century or two and it's going to turn into a forest. And in a forest, a more mature ecosystem, cooperation is actually the rule of the land. And the the same thing applies here in that I think it's a it's a maturity thing. oftentimes what I see is that young people is very much like, you know, in order for me to win, you have to lose, and it's and it's zero sum versus later on in life, it's like, okay, how can we how can we work together? How can we find the win win situation here? And, you know, you find out that one plus one really equals way more than two. and and I think that's a that's a universal force. Another universal force is is disturbance. So in ecology, disturbance is it's a key driver of growth. Like the reason we go out and light prairies on fire is because that's what maintained the prairie ecosystem for for eons, right? And so land managers will use these disturbances as a land management tool. They'll they'll clear cut a forest so that the oaks can regenerate or they'll light a prairie on fire to regenerate the prairie. The same thing applies in our lives, you know, so like when you lost the starting QB spot to Ben Rothisberger, like I'm pretty sure that was a fairly significant disturbance in your life, right? So I'm curious what other disturbances in your life have resulted in real growth, specifically the ones that you intentionally applied?

Ryan Hawk: when I when I got promoted from my first sales job, which I talked about, I was twenty six, I had no idea what I was doing. I was terrible at it. just trying to get better. I I had this like, you know, this immature kind of behaviors of well, if I just don't say it, it'll go away. You know, and I remember Jeff Weaver, one of my mentors, who was a manager like I don't know, 10 years older than me, maybe a little bit more. He's a military guy. And I had kind of had a series of these things where like I'd only want to talk about good things or I only want to share good news and like, it'll just go away. Like in you know, avoiding difficult conversations. And he and he he's he came to my office, he sat down, he said, Hey man, bad news doesn't get better with age. You gotta

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Teli Van Rycke: Ha ha ha.

Ryan Hawk: You gotta have the conversations. And I

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: mean it happened that that conversation with him happened a long time ago. And I'll I'll just never forget it and I repeat it all the time because I really, really struggled with that. Like I wanted my people to like me. I wanted them

Chris Lee: Yep.

Ryan Hawk: to be like, I got a good boss, I got a cool boss.

Teli Van Rycke: Mm.

Ryan Hawk: and that is I mean, that that comes from some immaturity, insecurity for sure. and and I and I had to really grow into being willing. And able and better at having really tough conversations with people. I could do it on a football field. It was different. I felt like we're all like kind of like alpha dudes who can get on each other. And like in the business world, it wasn't like that. You know, I the first first week on the job, I'm 26 and I have a 44-year-old woman walk into my office who's crying and tell telling me that her husband cheated on her and he wants a divorce. And I'm like, what? Like, why are you? Why are you telling me this? I would never tell my boss that.

Chris Lee: right.

Ryan Hawk: but I remember I called my dad afterwards, I'm like, I I I tried my best just to kind of listen or whatever, but I I and I said, What is it, what is happening? And that's when he said, Welcome to management. That ended up being the title to my first book because of this moment

Chris Lee: Perfect. Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: of this is how it goes, man. Like you got to get

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: to know all of your people, understand them, hold them accountable, have tough conversations on a regular basis, realize that a lot of them will bring their personal lives to you because you're their boss. and that's how it goes. And so yeah, man, I I just think I really, really struggled. and that's that that's that's a big reason why I wrote that first one because I was just trying to be helpful to people who were going through the same struggles because there are a lot of a lot of companies, I think they're getting better at this now, but there's not like training programs. It's just, hey, here's the job, have at it, and then you're like, What am I supposed to do? And you end up just making a lot

Teli Van Rycke: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: of mistakes, and and a lot of other people pay the price for that. So Yeah, I I would say that's that's like one of the big ones I think of.

Chris Lee: Yeah, I I like that. And and that's that's universally true is the ability and willingness to have tough conversations is leadership superpower across the board.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: So after seven hundred plus conversations, what are you more clear on today than say when you started back in twenty fifteen? or and or what are you less certain about or some common belief that you question now? I mean you've talked to I mean you've talked to the greats. Like, I mean all the like I said in the opening of this, like like my heroes you've talked to, I mean, Simon Sinek and Patrick Lintoni and and Adam Grant and all like these guys, like like you've been able to pick their brain and get their insights. What what are you less clear on or what has really solidified in your mind from a leadership perspective after talking to all these incredible people?

Ryan Hawk: I think the more the more you learn, the more you realize like how little you actually know. it's it's weird. It's like backwards. It should be the other way around. But the more I feel like I've I've gathered from people the the more I I realize I have so much more to learn. yeah, I I think I've I've gotten better and improved and and tried really hard to implement the stuff I'm learning, but there's still so much More out there. I plan to be doing this for the rest of my life. So there's no real end point, hopefully, anytime soon. and and I think the the other part that I've learned is what I mentioned earlier is even some of the most brilliant people still like, especially this doesn't always happen on air, but they're still just like a dude, you know, and they're trying to figure

Teli Van Rycke: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: things out. And They struggle at stuff. And you talk to them about their kids or whatever. And they're going through s similar things that all parents go through. and that I think that's inspiring. That that that gives me hope. That makes me feel good. When you think like

Chris Lee: Right.

Ryan Hawk: you look around, you're like, they all they got it all figured out. They got this perfect setup. And it's like, nah, and once you dig a little bit, you realize they don't. So I I would say like that's that's I think it's when you have more conversations, I think I've Just become a much more reasonable person and live less on the ends of like the, yes, it's definitely this, or no, it's definitely not this. You become more reasonable and live in the gray because like there's there's almost nothing that I'm dead certain about. That maybe when I'm a l was a little bit younger and less experienced, I was certain about everything. And so now I'm certain about a lot fewer things. And I think that comes from just. talking with so many people from all over the world who have different life experiences, it just adds such a rich perspective that I I I hadn't always thought of. But now that, you know, I built these relationships, I get it I get a chance to have the conversations and and kind of hear them specifically from those people. So yeah, I would say I'm like less certain of anything now than than I was at the beginning. And I guess that's a maybe that's a good thing. I I don't know. I hope so.

Chris Lee: I it's a bitter pill pill to swallow though, because I mean we're wired we want certainty in life.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah.

Chris Lee: Like like you know, that that uncertainty is so unsettling for people and and I think it's a it's a a real sign of maturity when somebody is willing to sit in that uncertainty and recognize, well, you know, I I think it's this, but I could be convinced otherwise. And

Ryan Hawk: Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: I I think that's that's a very mature thing for a leader to adopt. so this is My champagne question, if you could get one message out to all current and aspiring leaders in the parks and conservation space, or it could be leaders in general, what would it be? Some I stole this from Tim Ferris actually. So a a quote or something you could put on a billboard that that all current and aspiring leaders would see. What what would that message be?

Ryan Hawk: Mean, I would push people to create their own end of the day prompts and then answer those questions every single day. but come up with your own that are important to you that will help you achieve whatever the thing is that you wanna achieve. So I don't know if any of that fits on a billboard. I would just put my three end of the day prompts on the billboard and say pick your own or whatever, but that would be my version. What did I do today to go to bed a little go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up. What did I do today to push my edges? And what did I do today to add value to somebody else's life? And if if I do that every day, again, over the course of many, many, many days, I like my chances of of good things happening. So if others pick theirs or s use those, whatever, it doesn't matter to me. It's I I want them to to to add that practice. What it does is it works as a forcing function to live a much more intentional life. instead of just kind of floating around hoping for the best. And to me, if if people are just more intentional about how they went through things, I I feel like again, they would be much more likely to achieve whatever the thing is that they want to achieve.

Chris Lee: I'd I I like that and that's I hear that I hear that quite a bit in the leadership space of this daily practice stuff. And that really gets to the to the core of of the book too is is the daily practices that stack over time, right? So Ryan's book is The Price of Becoming The Compounding Practices of High Performance. That would certainly be one of Ryan, if s people wanted to find out more about you or connect with you, where would they go?

Ryan Hawk: Learningleader dot com is the home base for everything I do. If they want to listen to the podcast, it's there or search on any plot podcast platform. Just you can search Ryan Hawk or or Learning Leader and it'll pop up and yeah, check it out.

Chris Lee: Awesome. And I imagine you can get the book wherever books are sold, Amazon and all those places. The price of becoming Ryan Hawke's fourth book. And it's a good one, man. It it came out and I I grabbed it and and I think I consumed it in like two days. And I'm just like, man, this is this is good stuff here. So it's right there on my shelf and and there with all those other great ones that I like. Ryan, really appreciate you being on the show with us and for everybody listening, thank you for what you do and we'll talk to you again soon. Take care. Wait, wait, wait. Don't go yet. Don't start that next episode. I've got something for you. The Parks and Restoration Better Meetings Field Guide. See, most meetings just suck. And I'm going to wage war on crappy meetings. Go to parksandrestoration.com, enter your email into the next level leadership community mailing list, and you'll get access to the free PDF download, which is the Better Meetings field guide. It will walk you through what meetings to get rid of, how to make the standing meetings better, and just all around get things done and not just sit there twiddling your thumbs and wondering why. Did I get myself into this? The Better Meetings Field Guide from Parks and Restoration. Go to parksandrestoration.com, join the next level leadership community, get the download. See you at the next episode. Take care.