Leadership is a privilege, not a rank with Matt Doty | Episode 98

Matt Doty: it's a privilege to lead. And what that means and what I mean by that is, is, know, it's an opportunity and not everybody gets to do it. And so when you do get that opportunity, you can't take it for granted. You have to be thankful for that opportunity. You have to go out and earn it every single day because not everybody gets the chance to do it. And so I think too many times, and you talked about the title earlier, you know, we get the title and it's like, okay, I got it. No, no. That's the start.

Chris Lee: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the parks and restoration podcast. am Chris Lee, your host joining us on the show today is Matt Doty. He's the head of operations at Bartlett instrument company and the founder of PTL consulting LLC. Matt brings a fascinating

Teli Van Rycke: That's it.

Chris Lee: battle tested perspective to leadership having served a distinguished 20 year military career in the Iowa national guard,

Teli Van Rycke: additional board.

Chris Lee: where he held top tier senior leadership roles, including first sergeant and command sergeant major assignments. After retiring from the military, he successfully transitioned his high stakes leadership principles into the corporate world, serving as the executive VP and chief operations officer of Wheaton companies before stepping into his current operational role. Matt holds an MBA in strategic leadership from TUI University, is a proud graduate of the US Army Sergeant's Major Academy, and is the past chair of the Board of Governors for Leadership Iowa.

Teli Van Rycke: care of the board, Doug, and to the students of Iowa.

Chris Lee: Beyond the boardroom, he's deeply

Teli Van Rycke: Be on the road.

Chris Lee: embedded in his community, serving on his local school board and the Lee County Veterans Affairs Commission. He's a champion for veteran hiring, a dedicated father and a leader who passionately believes that leadership is a privilege, not a rank that you have to earn every single day. Matt, welcome to the Parks and Restoration podcast, man.

Teli Van Rycke: Okay,

Matt Doty: Chris, thanks for having me

Teli Van Rycke: thanks for having me.

Matt Doty: and thanks for saying all those nice things about me.

Chris Lee: Absolutely. Sure thing. And, I'll note too. Also we are joined by Telly van Ricky. She is the, director of operations

Teli Van Rycke: Thank

Chris Lee: here for parks and restoration. And so, she was actually the one that connected us, through some of you guys's, overlapping circles. And, so yeah,

Teli Van Rycke: in the lapis-ceratostate.

Chris Lee: kind of, she's the one that brought all this together. So tell, I appreciate you doing that.

Teli Van Rycke: Thanks for letting me join your conversation today.

Chris Lee: Absolutely. All right. So, Matt, you spent two decades in the Iowa national guard. you held senior leadership positions like command sergeant major. you know, give me a little bit about what you learned from leadership and how that experience and then, you know, any other life experiences helped kind of develop your leadership mindset that you bring forward today.

Matt Doty: Yeah, Chris, guess I would just start with, know, I had the privilege to serve with so many great leaders and not that I didn't have some bad ones also, right?

Teli Van Rycke: also.

Matt Doty: But most of them were so great and I always was blessed to be put in a space with some great leaders. And that allowed me to just grow as a person and professionally. And so I guess, you know, really it was just the opportunity to be around leaders. I mean, I've heard people say that the the military is a leadership academy. And I would completely agree with that, right? Like we start training them from, know, even the age of 18, 19, we're talking to young

Teli Van Rycke: You know, he's here tonight. We'll talk.

Matt Doty: men and women about being a leader and taking a couple of soldiers and accomplishing a task. And so, you know, for me, that mindset of being in that environment, being around great people, great leaders that just want to serve their country, right?

Teli Van Rycke: whether to allow certain or contrary.

Matt Doty: Doing that helped grow me as a leader. And then I think... You know, I think to finish answering that question, it's, know, I grew up in a system that

Teli Van Rycke: you

Matt Doty: said we have a set of values and those army values are how we're going to do everything. Right. And so when we do that and we live by those values, it allows us to be successful. And so I think, you know, when I, when I look back on my transition into the civilian workforce, one of the things, when I get the opportunity to talk about it is I talk about how I found a company with a value set that was similar to what I had in the military.

Teli Van Rycke: what I

Matt Doty: which was what was gonna allow me to be successful. And so it may not have been the exact same value set, but it was one that I said, I can be successful in that based on how I've lived my life and my time in the military. so again, I would

Teli Van Rycke: So, again.

Matt Doty: go back to it's just being around great people.

Chris Lee: Yeah, so I hear this come up pretty regular and I really need to dig into it some more. Maybe that'll be an episode for the future, but this concept of values, what were the values or what was it about just the fact that the military was such a value-based organization or at least your experience with it was that drew you in, I guess.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I don't know that it drew me in. To be honest, I tell people all the time, I joined the National Guard to go to college. I was trying to figure out how I was going to pay for college, right? And

Chris Lee: Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Matt Doty: I got into it and I found an organization that I enjoyed being a part of. And I guess from a values perspective, for us, it was leadership, loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. And you could shorten that down to leadership. It was easy to remember. And if you follow those things, you're going to do it right. And so to me, it was something that I think what happened was, you know, 20 some years ago, we started preaching those values and we started saying, Hey, here's what they are. We started talking about them. The senior leaders were talking

Teli Van Rycke: See you next time.

Matt Doty: about them saying, Hey, this is how we're going to live. This is how we're going to do these things. And so I think from that perspective, it was, Hey, here's the value set. And if I, and if I can live to those values, I'm to be a success in this organization. And so, you know, I look at any, any business, any company, any organization that says, Hey, here's our vision and here's our values. If people don't align with those, they're not going to be successful in your organization. And so how do we make sure that as we set our values for the, our organization, now we've got to make sure people align with that. And if they're not, they're not, that's, that's fine. You know, there's probably a better place for them, right? But you know, Hey, here's, here's the value set that we're expecting from you. And if you can do that, you can be successful here. And so I think my answer would be just that we spent

Teli Van Rycke: that we.

Matt Doty: so much time, and by we, I mean the senior leaders of the National Guard and the Army saying, hey, here's the value set we're going to have, and this is what we're going to expect you to live by. And I think it was an expectation. I think it was known. And so you

Teli Van Rycke: Thank you.

Matt Doty: know exactly what you need to do to be successful and or to what's going to get you in trouble.

Chris Lee: So what I'm hearing then is that it's, it's kind of, it's foundational. Like it establishes a foundation, you know, like you keep saying, if you, if you follow these, if you adhere to these, you're going to be successful. It isn't, you know, here's a set of skills. Here's, here's some training. Here's a course to take and learn this stuff and you'll be successful doing this one particular

Teli Van Rycke: that you'll be successful doing.

Chris Lee: thing, but doing this other particular thing. Well, that that's going to be a whole separate set of training. No, it becomes foundational. It's the, it's the, you know, the soil upon the which the whole ecosystem grows, right? And then this is, you know, this is how I approach leadership through the lens that I see everything is what are these universal principles that that we can glean that we can lock into that? Just once you have those in place, everything else takes care of itself. And it sounds like that's that's what you're finding then in a value driven organization has that.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I would agree. mean, your analogy is great. I mean, it is the foundation, right? It's where we start with everything. You know,

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Matt Doty: we're teaching young men and women in basic training. Hey, here's the value set. Here's the expectation, right? And so, you know, I think it starts there to

Teli Van Rycke: you know, like, that's there.

Matt Doty: your point. I can train you on what I need you to do next. I can teach you how to have a specific skill, but if you can't live by these, you're not going to be successful in this organization. And so, you know, one of the things that I love about the military is if you have no idea what it is you want to do next, the military is a perfect spot for you because they will train you to do what it is you need to do today. And if you still don't know what you want to go do, guess what? You can keep progressing. You can stay there. They'll train you to do the next thing. And so I

Teli Van Rycke: guess what? You arrest me.

Matt Doty: think to your point, it is the foundation. It's where it starts. And if, and if we can all come to an agreement that that's where we have to be. Now we can grow from there. And now we can say that's just what the minimal expectation is, is that we can live those values. But you know, some of the leaders that I saw that were not successful did a whole lot of talking about those values and not enough living them.

Chris Lee: Yeah, yeah. So let's dig into that a little bit. I know you touch on that a little bit in some of the talks that you give of people watch your feet and not your lips. And so

Teli Van Rycke: People watch the season.

Chris Lee: I think that's kind of what you're alluding to there. Explain that to me. And what lessons can leaders, whether they're in the field of parks conservation and natural resources, or really any field out there, take from that lesson there?

Matt Doty: Yeah, I mean, you said it right. They watch your watch your feet, not

Teli Van Rycke: Right?

Matt Doty: your lips. And I heard that quote here a while back when I was preparing for a presentation and it really lines up with something I talk about, which is I use the acronym BMW, right? Behavior matches words. Does your behavior match what it is you're doing or you as a leader

Teli Van Rycke: Thank you.

Matt Doty: just out there talking because they see it. People see it. know, and so I look at, mean, I can give you an example. I was at a wedding a couple of years ago. And we had a whole bunch of issues and so the bride ended up in the hospital, right? So we're trying to figure out what we're going to do. And this wedding team that ran this venue did a great job helping us out, feeding people, we're making things happen, right? And ultimately at the end of the night, we actually got them married. It was great. And at the end of the night, that team came up and the wedding party says, hey, you guys have done such a great job. We want you to come out and dance with us. And it just so happens the number two in charge said, Hey, you go, I gotta go clean up some stuff in the bathroom. And the owner said, no, no, you go have fun with the wedding party. I'm going to go take care of that. And so one of the things I always talk about is this, can you imagine the next time she says, Hey, can you go take care of this for me? You think she goes, no, no, you go do that. No, she says, absolutely. I'm going to absolutely go make that happen because I know you're willing to go do that. And so. For me, it's about your culture is based on how you live and what you do. And so you can talk a whole lot, but unless you're living it and unless they're seeing it, I mean, I always say, I mean, the culture is what the leader does. You know, so if you're, if you're not out there doing it and living it, it's going to be a problem. And so I just think you have to be the example. You have to be the individual that your behavior matches what the things that are coming out of your mouth. And so if you can't do that, unfortunately, You know, you're creating to that negative culture. You're, you're, you're adding to folks that say, well, why do I have to live by those values? Because, Hey, the leader doesn't do it. Or that's not part of what that person does. And so I just think it's a, it's a big thing that you as the leader set the culture and look, none of us is perfect. So we all make mistakes, right? But, that's also an opportunity as leaders say, Hey, that was on me. I made that mistake. I'm to be better next time. And so, yeah, for me, it is, you know, They're watching what you're doing, not so much what you're saying. And granted, the saying stuff is important, right? That we're the ones that set the vision. We're the ones that provide the guidance, but we also have to back it up with our feet.

Teli Van Rycke: This is a good segue. I actually was at a leadership book club this morning with one of your employees and I didn't realize that she was talking about you. But she was talking about how you come in every morning and you specifically call everyone by their name and you say hi to them and you make them feel very good just every day and that really opens up the relationship building and feeling good. And so I see that you want, you're modeling what you want to see happen in the workplace for everyone else there. So nice example I learned about you this morning. Thanks for doing that for your staff.

Matt Doty: Yeah, thank you. mean, listen, I don't know what is it, you stand on the shoulder of giants, right? Like I had so many awesome leaders that put me in the right positions and taught me those things. And when you think about it, I can't remember where I got this, but I was, well, actually was at a conference. I think it was the Iowa employment conference a couple of years ago. And a gentleman was talking and he was talking about the staff coming around to your tables and filling your water. And he said, how many of you have noticed what their name is and said something to them, you know, and called them by their name? And he talked about how important that was. We all love hearing our name, right? And from that point, I mean, again, I'd probably learned this earlier in my career, but wasn't smart enough to pick up on it, right? So, but from then on, I have made it a point to say, I know what your name is and I'm gonna call you by that because I want you to know that's important. The reality is, is we all want that. I mean, it's important to me when somebody does it to me. So I'm like, all right, I gotta model that. I gotta do that, but I appreciate that. Thank you.

Chris Lee: So I want to dig into that a little bit because this is somewhere, like I'm trying to get into a mindset of like questioning all the cliches or like the things that just seem like, yeah, yeah, that's right on the surface. But upon deeper inspection, you start questioning. So I'm trying to bring this questioning. This. Like I absolutely believe in the idea of, know, don't ask your people to do anything you wouldn't be willing to do. And, know, and like lead from the front and all that kind of stuff. But where do you, where do you draw the line? Because obviously there is different roles within an organization and say the executive director is in a different pay scale. Is it a different position on the org chart versus say the, frontline employee that's, know, just out there on the line. or, the, the field staff person, you know, and even in the military, you know, obviously there's the military is known for its hierarchy. Where, where is the line between the senior level person going down and doing the, the field level work and that, that becoming a detriment to the organization of a improper and improper is not the right word, but, not the best use of that leader's time. Or, or that leaders expertise or resources. where, where, where's that line drawn? Because I struggled to find that, like I, in my own line of work, I often think, God, I should be out there with the field team. Like, like we, I should be out there doing, doing the work with them. I should be going and doing the weekly rounds and scrubbing the toilets in the outhouses. you know, cause I'm asking them to do it. And most of the time I'm just almost never, am I out there doing it myself because I'm in the office, doing the office work and doing the admin work that the executive director needs to do. And, and so I, I ended up feeling like I should be doing this stuff, but then I'm like, well, no, I mean, if my board saw me out there scrubbing toilets, when, you know, really I should be thinking about how to build our fund or our fundraising or revenue capacity. Like that's, that's not what they hired me to do. So, so where do you draw that line? Where, how do you reconcile that?

Matt Doty: Chris, I wish I knew the answer to that question. And if we did, I think it's a book, it's a podcast, it's a movie, right?

Chris Lee: Yeah, for sure.

Matt Doty: You know, I guess I say it this way, because I don't know the answer. I can only tell you what I have tried to do. And that is, you I always say that I will never ask you to do something I haven't done or I'm not willing to go do. And I think the answer to the question is, is sometimes you just got to do the thing. And I get it, you know, you should be to your point, you've got a board you answer to, you know, we've all got a boss, right? And so the minute that you're not producing reports or whatever the outcome of your role is, that's a problem. And somebody's going to have issue with that, right? But when your people are performing, because you go down there and you do the thing, whatever that is in your building, whatever that is in your organization, to me, the output and the production improves so much. we'll figure out what we're going to do in the executive director's chair, right? So again, I think to your point, I think it is so important because it can be too much because here's the other problem. Let's be honest as the executive director, as the command sergeant major, I'm a pain when I show up at your event. When I'm there, I'm a distraction because now

Chris Lee: Right. Yup.

Matt Doty: are you doing it just because that individual's there? Are you doing it or is that really how you do business or is it because the leader's there, you're going to do it right? Like I think about safety, right? you know, are you only wearing the proper safety equipment because the leader showed up? Hopefully not, right? Hopefully we've got the right culture. But I know I'm also as a leader, I'm a distraction. But the reality is you also have to do the thing. And people appreciate that. I think, what it says is, again, I'm not going to ask you to do anything I'm not willing to do myself, you know? And I think it's, you know, the way I always say it in my talks is I don't know what the thing is in your building, figure it out and go do it with them, you know? I look back on, army physical fitness tests, right? It's a requirement every so often. And so companies would, you know, my first sergeants would occasionally say, Hey, we're going to do the army physical fitness test on this day. Would you like to be there? Absolutely. I'll be there and I'll do it. I'll do the thing with them, right? Because they need to see that I'm willing to go do those things too. You know, I think it's as simple as go take out the trash. Somebody needs to take out the trash. Why can't it be you? You know, and I think,

Chris Lee: Yeah, great.

Matt Doty: I think the answer to your question, Chris is we have to find that balance. You know, I always look at it as, the leader, I can travel on my time. I can, I can take my time to do the thing and then I'll spend whatever other time I need to do the thing that I need to do to be successful as that executive director, as that command sergeant major. But I'm going to find as much time as I can to do the thing with them without being a burden, but also showing them that they're important.

Chris Lee: Yeah, yeah, you make a couple really great points there because you're absolutely right. The dynamic changes when the boss walks in the room. 100%, I don't care how collegial you are with your team, the dynamic changes. And certainly those of us that work in small organizations have experienced this or for those that came up through the ranks and they went from coworker to manager or to supervisor to leader, that's a crazy dynamic to have to navigate. you have to recognize the... These guys were your pals, they were your colleagues, they were your coworkers until they weren't. And now they're your direct reports and you have to recognize that that dynamic is different now when you walk into the room. And so it is gonna change. I work construction going through college and you're absolutely right. Like the boss would show up and you're like, Jesus Christ, we're not gonna get anything done. Like he's just, he's gonna screw this all up. Like, let's just bide our time until he leaves. He's gonna feel good about being here for a little bit. And I think what I'm hearing though, in the answers she just gave is it's a product of motivation. Like why are you going out there and doing that? If you're going out there just to avoid sitting at your desk, which let's face it, I would love to do some more field stuff just so I don't have to sit at the damn desk, right? Yeah. And if that's what it is, maybe that's all right, but your board or your boss might look at that from a different perspective. But if you're truly doing it, to go out there because it's empowering your team, because it's building that camaraderie up and down the org chart. it's there in service of your team to show that, look, we are in this together. We are a team. This isn't just me standing on high, barking at you and saying, go get this thing done. I'm in the trenches with you and I will be in the trenches with you. And I'll be here at least enough to know that, God forbid something comes up and you can't make it in and something's gotta get done, I got your back. I'll be there. And if that's what you're coming into it with, I think that's a very different situation. And any boss that's worth half the anything is gonna look at that and be like, that's a value to this company. That is a value to this organization. Absolutely, you should do more of that. And I think that's at least where I've come from, is why am I doing it? know what? And, if it's coming from a place of, of building that organizational capacity and building that cohesion, that's a very different thing than, just, you know, trying to kill some time because you're trying to avoid the thing you don't want to do. or, know, because some talking head on a podcast that you should go do that.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I agree. I mean, think as long as it's not for show, to your point, right? I mean, because listen, people see that and people know that. they know the, if

Chris Lee: I'll see right through that in heartbeat.

Matt Doty: exactly, you know, the leaders just, you know, what did I hear the other day? Dakota Meyer, Medal of Honor recipient said something to the effect of, you know, there's do as I say leaders and do as I do leaders. And he said,

Chris Lee: Yeah

Matt Doty: do as I say or dead, this generation's too smart. And I thought, man, I'm probably screwed that quote up, but it's something like that, right? And I think as long as you're not out there for show, right? You don't have to be the best at whatever it is they're doing. But knowing that you're willing to go out and do it and be there while they're doing it, to me, and seeing that first line leader excelling, right? Seeing what they're able to do with the young personnel that they have on their team, right? Or the team that they have. I think that's huge. And it gives you an opportunity to see what's happening in your organization. It gives you an opportunity to see what the culture is in your organization. And again, I think it says, I used to always tell my leaders, we need to tell our people why whenever we have an opportunity. And when we can't tell them why, when there's some time crunch and I just say, hey, I need you to go accomplish this. Then in my head, I hope they say to themselves, right? Like I know he normally has my best interest at heart and normally he tells me why. Clearly there's a reason he doesn't have time to tell me why I'm gonna go execute because I know he has my best interest at heart. And so, you know, I think it's the same thing. mean, as long as you're down there with the best intentions of doing the thing, being part of it. And I also tell them, hey, maybe you can't do the thing. Maybe it's too technical. Stand there. Stand there and talk to them. Find out what's happening. know, because again, I think you I think you find insight, you figure out what's happening within your organization, when you're able to do that and see those things. And I think you mentioned to Chris, I think one of the things that it does is it tells you what's happening in your organization. I learned so much from being out on the ground in the military and seeing what my soldiers were doing. that I could take back to the boss and say, look, here's what's happening out there. Here's the great things going on. Here's the things that I'm a little concerned about we probably need to be talking to our leaders about.

Chris Lee: Yeah. And that goes both ways. One, you're passing it up the chain. And so you're giving your leaders an opportunity to affect change within the organization and have the organization function at a higher level. But then it shows the people below you, the people that you're leading, that you care enough to try to break down the barriers or to give them the opportunity to operate at a higher level. in the process, everybody wins. know, you're not going out there and you're not seeing what it is that they're dealing with and they're just out there dealing with it. And they get in that, that, that concept of learned helplessness, right? Of like, this is just how it is. Nothing's going to change. I just put my head down and just, just keep on grinding four o'clock. I'll be here soon enough. And I get to go home. Like, and and you see that, you know, especially like government agencies and the agencies that have the big, your biggest bureaucracies where, where, like even the little things just don't. get fixed, right? And it's that learned helplessness and it just destroys culture. I want to pivot here a little bit. So one of your other concepts is, in one the things I look at is in ecology, Management is never done. Like there is no end state, right? Like I go out there and I do a burn on a native prairie and I'm like, okay, the property is managed and I walk away forever. Like it's not going to stay in that like change. You know, just did a leadership program this morning and one thing it was out in the woods and one of the things I talked about is how these these woods that we were sitting in have changed just in the last hundred years. Like I could see these great big oak trees, but they're completely surrounded by a bunch of bunch of maples. And I'm like, well, if just by what I see here, I can tell this was an open area at one point and now these maples have come in because nothing was done. And the question was, is doing nothing a management strategy, right? And so I went back, just had curiosity, I looked at the aerial photographs and you look at 1930s and you can see the big oak trees, the canopies of the big oak trees, but there's nothing else there. So you go and you do a thing and then you don't just walk away, you gotta come back. It's just like working out. Like, you know, you go and you push some weights a little bit and then you'd like, yeah. Okay. I'm in shape now. Like, no, that's, know, tell, he's going to resonate with this. She gets up at like three 30 in the morning, goes to the gym every day. but it's, it's an everyday thing, right? The concept that you bring forward is, is this concept of I've arrived versus still learning. Walk me through that because I thought that was fantastic.

Matt Doty: Yeah. Well, I've listened to the previous podcast, so I know how much of an animal telly is working out. So I'm, I'm striving

Chris Lee: Thank

Matt Doty: to be better. I'm decent at that, but I'm striving to be

Chris Lee: You

Matt Doty: better. Yeah. You know, I love talking about this. So, I had a, a friend who, who basically was kind of towards the end of his military career. Right. And he was trying to figure out what's next for him. And another guy he's talking to says, Hey, well, you know, are you, you going to retire soon? What are what are you doing? And. You know, and my friend said, well, you know, listen, still, I still love leading soldiers. I still feel like I'm a benefit to the organization. Like as long as I can keep doing that, I'm probably going to stick around for a few more years, you know, and this other guy said, man, you're looking at that all wrong. This is about you and what you want. And so I use that guy as the, this guy that is the I've arrived leader, right? Like they, they see, they see this position they want. They've been watching it and eventually they get into it and they're like, okay, I'm good. can coast. I've made it to the top of the mountain. I don't have any work to do. Like life is good. I've been watching this person get that position for years and they don't do anything. And the reality is it's such a detriment to your organization, right? Because that individual, the opposite of that is what I call the I've arrived leader. And so that I've arrived leader is the individual that says, okay, hey, I made it to that promotion that next peak, whatever it is, but is able to look out and says, hey, first off, I know I don't know everything. So I got a lot of work to do. I got to keep learning, right? And so, and then what can I do to bring people that are down at that next peak below me and bring them up to the peak I'm at, right? So I love talking about this concept of I'm still learning leader rather than I've arrived leader. And to me as a leader, it never stops. And I think you mentioned this, you never stop growing as a leader. What's the next thing you need to get better at? And one of the things I also talk about with this is, I feel like I'm still learning leaders are people who know they don't know everything. So

Chris Lee: Yes.

Matt Doty: they get into that next position, they get into that next promotion and they say, hey, who are the smart people around me that I need to get to help me, number one, learn and number

Chris Lee: Mm-hmm.

Matt Doty: two, be my eyes and ears and help me understand the things that I could be doing better. And it just makes the entire organization better. And the problem we have is, we end up with these I've arrived leaders. and they're doing nothing. In fact, they're hurting your organization. They're taking them backwards rather than moving forward, right? And so if we can replace those I've arrived leaders with I'm still learning leaders, the organization instantly gets better and we start to produce additional leaders because that I'm still learning leader says, hey, let me figure out what I can do to help you and bring you to my level. And I always joke like, listen, name one position that doesn't have a boss, right? So there's always another something we could be going to. I still feel like that that I'm still learning leader concept is just for me. It is just I try and talk about it from the standpoint of you should never be done. You should. It's never you know what I got leadership down. Like I'm golden. I can stop never. It's never going to be that way. There's always another book. There's always another concept. There's always somebody else's experience that you say, man, I can learn from that. You know, I'll give you an example. I had a I had the opportunity when I was in the aviation battalion. to fly from Waterloo, we went from Boone to Waterloo in a helicopter. And it just so happened that Chief Warrant Officer 5, Jody Van Velzen and my battalion commander Chuck Lampe were the ones that were flying us. Now keep in mind, these guys have been flying helicopters forever. In fact, Jody, I think ended up with 6,000 some combat hours, 800 some, or excuse me, 6,000 hours total, 8,000 flying hours in combat. We took a routine flight. And I know that's easy for me to say, cause I'm not a pilot. We took a routine fight

Chris Lee: you

Matt Doty: from Boone to Waterloo and we touched down, they shut the helicopter off and the two of them started talking about things that they need to do better. Hey, you know, we did this right. Hey, you know, we could, we could be better at this. Hey, we probably need training on this. We should look at this next additional training that would be good for us. Again, here's a guy at that point that probably at least had 5,000 flight hours picked up in Boone flew to Waterloo. and still took the time, of these two experienced pilots took the time to say, hey, here's the things we can do to get better today. And even to the point of, what do, you know, we didn't do this as well as we thought. What are other pilots having the same, are they having the same issue? And we should really think about that. And so, you know, I learned a ton from Jody Van Bellzen and Chuck Lampie both, but in that instance, I thought, man, here is, this is an I'm Still Learning leader. You know, I joke, I think Jody could fly that with, with his eyes closed. But again, he still was trying to figure out how do I get better? And so that's how I talk about, about that concept of, and I've arrived leader who's nothing but a detriment to the organization versus the I'm still learning leader that, continues to make us better as an organization and more importantly, better people all around them.

Chris Lee: Yeah. So many different avenues there that, that I come to mind the first one, I'll just work backwards for most recent here that the idea of, of getting out of the helicopter and being like, okay, let's, let's talk about what we could do better. Like that went from all, from all measures, that was the perfect flight. Now how can we do it better? And there's a reason that, that, airline safety. is what it is today. It's incredibly high. Like it is safer to fly than it is to drive your car. And it's because of that mindset of that constant training of a lot of checklists and making sure that everything is covered. But then this mindset of, okay, how do we do this better? You see this across industries and one of the future topics I'm gonna talk about on here is I think it's a high, I don't remember what it's called. buddy Jeremy that does a show with me. He does a lot of prescribed fires and he, they do a lot of AARs. So we've talked about this on the show and I know that's a military concept of, like, you,

Matt Doty: It is.

Chris Lee: you do a mission and immediately you come back and you debrief it. Like, okay, what, what was the, what was the plan? What went right? What went wrong? How can we do better? And the organizations I see do that. I mean, the, guys on the fire line, they're, they're doing this all the time. They out in Western Iowa, they have this co-op burn week and these are some of the most experienced people that, that exists in the fire world in the state of Iowa. And every one of them comes back to the table and says, okay, how could that go better? Like that fire might've gone perfect. How could we be doing better? And it's, it's that, that endless mindset. This, this concept of learning leader is It's almost a forced humbleness. Like if you adopt that, adopt that as a value, like you can't not be humble, right? Cause now you're constantly going to be looking around like, some somebody is better at this than I am. Somebody is ha knows more than I do. How can I reach out to them? There is no end state, you know, getting back to like Simon Sinek talking about the infinite game. there, there, there is no end goal. the, like there's no you've arrived, right? And, David Novak, the past CEO of Yum brands. was Taco Bell and KFC and stuff. listened to his podcast a lot and he, I he wrote this book, take them with you. And it's that, it's that same concept of you reach the mountain top. Now it's like, okay, how can I bring some people up here? And now what can I continually do better? And I think his latest book is called the learning leader, or how leaders learn, I think. And that's, that's one of his big concepts is like, you never ever stop learning and the best leaders are perpetual learners. And, and, so I think you're really onto something. And the last thing I'll touch on on that very point is this, this concept of I've arrived often is tied to title, right? So like, I got the CEO job or I got the manager job, or I got the, the Sergeant position or whatever it is, but titles are artificial. Like titles are just a construct. So what does, what have you actually arrived at? Right. And, and so just possessing that title. you know, some, records burn up and the title doesn't exist anymore. So that's just an artificial contract. So you haven't arrived at anything. If you don't have the mindset then to apply of like, okay, how, how am I then taking my position to the betterment of my team and how can I be perpetually getting better? So I absolutely love, love that concept that, that, you espouse there.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I love the humility piece. hadn't thought of it from that perspective. And I really liked that because to your point, if you're not humble, you think you get to a point where you know everything. And so as a leader, mean, humility is so important. And yeah, I mean, I would tell you, you know, it's interesting you talk about titles, right? And one of the things I used to, I used to write a note when, my soldiers would get promoted to that next rank. And one of the things I used to love to put in there is, you know, first off, I'm proud of you, you know, great job getting to where you're at today. But now I need you to go earn that. And I need you to earn it every day. And I need you to get better every day. And it's not about you. It's about those that you serve and those that you lead. And so, you know, not just like, to your point, you haven't arrived, you just started. And then, you

Chris Lee: Exactly, yes.

Matt Doty: know, now, and you're not just doing it for you, you're doing it for those that you serve. And so I think those are both great concepts. I love that.

Chris Lee: Yeah. I, um, that reminds me of when I, when I started my career, um, I, you know, I came out of college and I didn't really have any references because I didn't have any job experience really. Um, and I had applied for this job and I had used one of my professors as a, as a reference. Um, you know, just, I figured he could speak to my work ethic in class, you know? Um, and it turns out the conservation world is pretty small. So everybody knows everybody. And, and he was a highly respected person inside the conservation world. And to this day, I, I've, I've probably never, it's probably trauma. but he's like, yes, I'm, I'm, I'm going to give you this reference. Don't make me a liar. And that has stuck with me ever since. Like, like this guy is sticking his neck out there. He's he's he's vouching for me, even though I recognize that you bury it. He's had me in class, whatever two years or something like that. and I'm like, you're right. Now, now I have to go and prove him right. You know, so it's not that I've arrived. I've just started. So I like that a lot. Tell you got anything to add here.

Teli Van Rycke: I was just going to say that being a former volleyball coach and being an athlete before that, I really think leaders should not be called bosses. They should really just be called coaches because the best coaches that have success with their teams are just like in organizations or companies, They push them hard. They give them good advice and feedback, and then they push them to go farther beyond that. Hey, you've done the thing. Good job. Now keep going and don't stop here. And so just that striving to hit excellence all the time is what leaders need to do and coaches. So yeah.

Chris Lee: I'm glad you bring that up because earlier I had that thought of high performing sports people. They come at it with the same mindset of they're never done. They're perpetually improving. And was just hearing somebody talking about, I think it was Kobe Bryant. And they said that he was always the first to show up and he'd be out there. It's not so much that he would outwork everybody, but he knew that even though he's this star player, there's something he could be working on. There's something he could be getting better at. And he brought that ethos to the entire team. And that there's a ripple effect to that, right? And that it helps everyone around you become better if you're getting back to that modeling thing that we were talking about earlier. So there's so much value to that. I love the two. bring that up.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I have a slide that I show in my leadership presentation and it's Peyton Manning. he's

Chris Lee: Mm-hmm.

Matt Doty: from, I don't remember when he was, Broncos or Colts, but either way it doesn't really matter, but he's rehabbing an ankle. So he's got his ankle in a cold or a hot tub and he's got his helmet on because on the other side of the wall they're practicing. And so he's listening to the plays being called and he's got his iPad and he's watching plays. He's watching video, you

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Matt Doty: know, and one of the things I talk about is I said, can you imagine being some rookie? or somebody that really isn't a leader on that team that comes rolling in there thinking they're going to rehab an ankle and they've got their phone because they're to get on social media and see what's happening. You roll in and Peyton Manning is doing three things at once.

Chris Lee: Right.

Matt Doty: I'm guessing their mindset changed, right? And so, I mean, to your point about Kobe is you model what your expectation is. I look at great people like a Peyton Manning, Kobe Bryant, like they modeled what the expectation was for those around them.

Chris Lee: Yeah. And I've heard endless stories of like you have a team that that's not not hitting the marks. They're, not a team that's operating at a level of excellence. And then you bring a leader in like a Coby, like a Peyton, like a Tom Brady and just that one shift changes the dynamic of the entire team. It's the same, same people. And we've seen this with, with, with coaching changes. We've seen this, you know, I'm sure you've seen this in leadership. You have a, you have a, a team lead and then You know, the, the, the, fact, I just read a book about it as one of the books back behind me here, that David L David Marquette that, turned the ship around the worst performing

Matt Doty: I've read that.

Chris Lee: ship in the, in the Navy, the worst performing sub. And he turned it around. Same people. Like the same crew became the highest performing ship in the fleet. And we see that over and over and over a simple leadership change or bringing the right people in that effect. Is is not just that one person. It affects everyone around him. There's there's this ripple effect and you can see the same thing in in ecosystems You know you you bring in a certain keystone species and it changes everything I've ever watched that video of how wolves change landscapes But

Matt Doty: Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: you know like just the reintroduction of wolves and Yellowstone Changed the landscape completely, you know, because this cascade effect this ripple effect And so I really think that you're you're you're touching on a universal principle there that is just true across any industry.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I think that leader that you bring in or that coach just makes everyone better, right? And it multiplies

Chris Lee: Mm-hmm.

Matt Doty: that effect that they have on others who get better and then they're providing that same effect to the person next to them. It's so funny you bring up that book. Telly, I just gave that book as a recommendation for one you guys should do in the book club.

Chris Lee: Yeah, it's a good book.

Teli Van Rycke: Perfect. I hope we read it then.

Chris Lee: Yeah. Okay. so kind of along this line of, of, learning leader and, and, you know, this concept of, I've arrived versus, you know, I'm, I'm still learning and still growing, the time value of leadership, is one of your other concepts. And I really like this because, those of us who work in ecology work in conservation, we know what it's like to think in long-term. So, you you play in an Oak tree today, you're never going to sit under its shade. so oftentimes we're. Our timelines are in tree timelines, you know, not even human timelines, but we're looking at, you know, we did a field trip down to shimic forest, which is down in Southern Iowa here a while back and they have a hundred year management plan. And, you know, they're, they're managing forest stands in like 10 year increments. They won't even come back to a particular stand for another 10 years. Right. And then like, this is pretty long time horizons when the business world operates in quarters. You know, like three months from now, I better be in my quarterly goals or whatever. So talk about that time value of leadership, because I think there's a lot of overlap there.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I typically start Chris with the time value of money, right? And that we, the dollar we put in today starts to grow exponentially and kind of like when's the best time to plant a tree? 20 years ago, second best time today, right? So same

Chris Lee: Yeah, right.

Matt Doty: thing with money, right? The sooner we get in there, the sooner it starts compounding, the sooner it starts getting even better and better for us in the long run, right? So the things we do today are so vital to what happens in 20 years from a financial perspective. The same is true with leadership. If you invest in your leadership today, you read a book, you listen to a podcast, you do something that makes you a better leader today, you have a conversation. When you do that, you're a better leader tomorrow. And when you're a better leader tomorrow, you're getting better for the next day and the next week and the next month and the next year. And so for me, it's kind of that concept of how do we continue to be a better leader today? because it's going to make an effect in 20 years or to your point in a hundred year management plan, right? So for me, it's all about how do I get better today? And I have to get better today because it's gonna make me better tomorrow, but it's gonna exponentially make me better in a year. And then we go back to what you talked about is, you put that person where they're affecting others and now all of those people are getting better every single day.

Chris Lee: you

Matt Doty: And so a lot of times when I talk about that, I just talk about feedback and I talk about how we receive feedback and some of that type of stuff. But I think it's just for me, it's the concept of I can't wait till tomorrow to invest that dollar. I also can't wait till tomorrow to get better as a leader. I have to do it today. And it may not be three hours worth of something. It might be two minutes, but I got to do something today to be a better leader and to hold myself accountable for that.

Chris Lee: I, I love that on, on, on so many facets that the, that, that time value of money, you know, I've, I've, I've, I've seen those, those charts, you know, and that, that growth rate, like the biggest thing that you have working for you is time, you know? And, and yeah, I try to tell this to my, younger staff of like, now is the time to, to be putting money away because you have the luxury of time in front of you. versus someone who's creeping up on retirement age, like, I guess I probably ought to start an IRA now. They don't have that luxury of time and the return on that. And so I think you're absolutely right in that of the effort you put in today to being that better person and that better leader, that compounding effect, not just for you personally, but for your organization, for the mission delivery of your organization is... It's immeasurable. yeah, just, you're right.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I was thinking about that from when you're saying that. mean, to me, I mean, think about think about the the you you talk about the young people or the younger people in your workforce when it comes to financial. The same is true for that leadership, right? You take that first line leader like we would call him in the military. You know, you you get them to be a better leader today and tomorrow and the next day. What happens when our command sergeant major? They're phenomenal, right? Because they've

Chris Lee: Yeah, right.

Matt Doty: learned to learn to get better every single day. It's no different in civilian world, right? We take a construction or conservation officer. We get him to be better today. at a 22, 25 year old, right? What happens when they're 35? They're

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Matt Doty: now doing phenomenal things for their organization, plus affecting all those around them. So I love that

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Matt Doty: concept.

Chris Lee: Yeah. I mean, I was talking, I don't know, some time ago, about this in, terms of, of that, you know, bringing up a new generation of fire managers, you know, so my buddy Jeremy out there in Western Iowa, and doing the burn week that they do. and it's, it's, it's both a cooperative thing to, you know, get more acres burned, but it's also a training thing and it's, it's cultivating that, that next generation. Of, of people that are going to at some point in the not too distant future, be the ones that are tasked with managing these lands because you don't just manage the lands now and then walk away from it. You know, like, like it's an endless, endless game, right? It's an infinite game. And so it's a, it's a, it's an absolute necessity to be cultivating that next generation. And it's, it's so easy though, for, for bosses and managers. And I use those terms intentionally versus leader to look at. their team as a means to an end, like human resource, like there there are, there are resource to be extracted, to be used towards an end, right? Like I hired these interns to come and clean my toilets on Fridays because we got to get them clean for the park this weekend, right? There people coming into the park this weekend and you know, that's what they're here. Go out and do the work and don't question like you put your pay in your dues. Like how much more work is it to just do something that helps them develop as a leader? Because, and I've talked about this previous podcast, they're going to go off to some other organization and they're going to bring their time and talent and experience good or bad otherwise to some other organization to affect a resource somewhere else. Maybe it's your organization. Like maybe they become

Matt Doty: Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: staff later on. So like you'd be doing a disservice, not developing them. And so often that's, that's easy to overlook. I mean, I'm guilty of it myself, like you know, this is why we hire interns, you know, and this is why why you have grunts in the military. But no, I really, I really do like that concept. It's not unlike as just last week, I think, tell you, I sent you a picture, quick little video to throw on social like I we have this weekly run club at work, it's a couple of co workers, and it's like a public invite, you know, after work, come come run with us at the trails that are our preserve. And it's summer. And it's hot and I hate running. I've been running for a couple of years, but I still hate it. Like I just, loathe running, but I do it because I look around me and I see all the people either that I know they're part of my life or they come to my parks that don't have the capacity to do what I know they want to do. You know, they're a little out of shape. They got some health problems or something like that. and you know, like, like I know they want to be splashing in that Creek with their grandkids, but they can't, know, they're not going to climb down that steep bank. I will not be that person. And to not be that person when I'm 70 means that at 44, I better go run them damn trails. Right. It's it's that's, that's the cover charge for having the life that you want later on. And then the same thing applies, you know, in all facets, but certainly in this. And so I think that's, I don't know, I'm totally off on a tangent here.

Teli Van Rycke: I don't think anyone

Matt Doty: No, I...

Teli Van Rycke: loves running, but I mean, don't you just feel really good after you've done it? You're like, I've done something hard and it's really gratifying. so especially when you do it with a community, if you're just really good. So I think that's what you're alluding to. Like do something together, do something hard together. And it really creates kind of a bond with your team. So I think that's awesome that you do that.

Matt Doty: Yeah, listen, if you want to build a team, do hard things together. Like that plan is simple. mean, you

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Matt Doty: look at deployments, you know, when soldiers and companies leave to go on deployment, like they

Chris Lee: Hmm.

Matt Doty: come home as well-known machines, right? Because they did hard things together. And, you know, it goes back to being a leader though, Chris. Like you're a leader, you're out there because A, some people need to see that Chris is out running. He's not just talking about this thing that's out there, right? And two, it's for you. You're getting better as you know, doing it. And three, You know what, when was the last time you felt good about something that was easy? You know, like

Chris Lee: Rarely.

Matt Doty: I work out and in the moment I'm like, this is dumb. And, but you know, somewhere in the middle, I'm like, man, I'm glad I did that. And boy, I'm glad I challenged myself. And to your point, Chris, I mean, I see what's happening out there. And for me, you know, I turned 50 this year and so everything is what's it going to be like when I'm 60, what's it going to be like when I'm 70? And I'm pretty sure I'm not going to do as many things as I did at 50 and 40, but I'm damn sure going to try.

Chris Lee: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's the cover charge you pay for, know, for that life you want to have later on. I like that a lot. All right. so, I'll start winding this down a little bit. I always ask this question. What is, we can call it a parting thought. I've, I've stolen this question from, from Tim Ferris. So I like to listen to, if you could put one message on a billboard, say for all upcoming or aspiring leaders or everyone in general to see, you know, what would that message be or what's the takeaway message that you would like to leave with the listeners to the show here today?

Matt Doty: Well, I mean, first off, there's been so many and I've listened to some of the answers to this and what people have some great concepts. And listen, I am not the smartest guy in the room. I could tell you that. I have been around so many great people that have produced what I am today. And I don't know why, but I kept getting put with great command teams who just taught me to be better. I think for me, Chris, I think it's to think about you know, again, it's my leadership philosophy. So maybe that's selfish to say it, but I think it's a privilege to lead. And what that means and what I mean by that is, is, know, it's an opportunity and not everybody gets to do it. And so when you do get that opportunity, you can't take it for granted. You have to be thankful for that opportunity. You have to go out and earn it every single day because not everybody gets the chance to do it. And so I think too many times, and you talked about the title earlier, you know, we get the title and it's like, okay, I got it. No, no. That's the start. so I think when we think about that privilege and then, you know, I think about that privilege and those concepts of what I need to do to continue to earn to be a leader, right? And then my great friend, Krista Tedros said, you know, the other thing is, is you never get there alone. And that's why it's a privilege. And I completely agree with that is I think we are all a product of those around us that have poured into us. And so how do we you know, if we can maintain that leadership is a privilege, then we're going to work on it every day. We're not going to take it for granted. We're going to be thankful for it. And we're going go out and be better for those we serve. And I think that's the takeaway, right? Is one, it's a privilege. And I try every time. It's not those I lead. It's those I serve. Because that's the reality. You serve those individuals. Yeah, they work for you. Yeah, you tell them what to do because you're the leader. But the reality is it's those you serve. And when you have that mindset, You're going to be humble to your point earlier and you're going to continue to get better as leader every day.

Chris Lee: That's good. I don't know if can add anything of value to that. I like that on so many facets, but I mean, you're right. I love that you never get there alone. I think for me that hits home a little bit because I have noticed that leadership being in a leadership role can feel pretty lonely. You know, in that, that like you're at your, you are there to serve. as you, as you go up in org chart, it narrows, you know, and there, there isn't peers along the same level. and so at least within a particular organization, the higher up you go, the lonelier it is, you know, until eventually there's just, there's one square up there up at the top. And I think that there's, there's kind of two facets to that is, is you never get there alone. So, so the people that are, that you're leading and that you're serving, you know, that they're part of it too, but also don't feel like you've got to be in this position and hold this title, do this thing. by yourself. There are other people out there at your level. You know, just like you said, as being someone who's still constantly learning, there are people out there that you could reach out to that that could be a mentor to you or that can help you get to the next level. And, you know, just don't lose the sight of that feeling like you're just all isolated here because that's a very dangerous thing. And I see that sometimes. People in leadership roles, they just kind of feel like they're, they're just charging along all by themselves. And this is why I love having these conversations is like, you know, here's, there's three leaders on my screen with me and like, is we're in this together, right? Like, like, like we're, dealing with the same stuff. We're, struggling with the, with the same questions. We're, we're, trying to be better together and learn from each other. And, you know, that's what I want to provide via this podcast is. this concept of a, leadership can be a lonely endeavor, but you're not alone and you know, reach out. So I guess that brings me to my last question. If somebody wanted to connect with you, learn more about you, you know, the programs that you're part of or things like that, where would they go to find that?

Matt Doty: Yeah, my email is matt at privilege to lead.com or they can find me on LinkedIn. But yeah, reach out. Absolutely. You know, leadership is hard and but leadership can be a team sport. Right. And I think, you know, I think back, my battalion commander and I, when we were deployed, there were many times we felt like we were on an island because we were making decisions and we said, hey, we know this is in the best interest of these 500 soldiers were leading. Right. But they weren't popular decisions. And so we could feel like we were on an island and, know, at least we had each other and we were able to say, Hey, no, no, boss, we're making the right decision. We're doing the right thing, even though it, you know, they may not see that yet. but it is a team sport. And so I think the better, I love that you, you said that concept. is how do we, how do we get out and help each other be better? And there's somebody struggling with the same thing that you're struggling with in your organization. So find a podcast, find a book because there's some insight there. Call a buddy. there's some insight there that you go, know, I haven't tried that and that might work in my organization. anyway, I love leadership. know you and I, Chris, I think and Telly also, we all kind of identify as leadership nerds. I'm the same way. I feel like I've been a student of leadership for my whole life. Probably not when I was under 20, because I was too much of an idiot. But since then, I feel like

Chris Lee: Yeah.

Matt Doty: I've just been, I see leadership in everything, right? And so, I try and grasp those concepts and see what's out there and how do I get better and then how I translate that to other people. So if anybody does want to reach out, please, Matt at Privilege to Lead, love to talk to you and see what we can do together to be better.

Chris Lee: Yeah, thank you. Matt, I do appreciate you joining on the show. And I love that concept of leadership is a privilege. And so I will put your contact information in the show notes before we close down. Tell me anything to add or close out with.

Teli Van Rycke: Nope, I just also love your philosophy of leadership as a Pluribridge and I think that is why I wanted to connect the two of you. thank you for coming and joining us and hopefully you guys can continue this connection and lean on each other when you have a question or something comes up. So thanks a lot.

Matt Doty: Yeah, I appreciate it. It's absolutely been my privilege to be here. So I appreciate the opportunity.

Chris Lee: Absolutely. Thanks, Matt. And for everybody listening, now you kind of know why the tagline of this podcast is better leaders, better parks. This has been the parks and restoration podcast. If you are in the parks conservation, natural resource world, know that I certainly do appreciate what you do and I will talk to you soon. Take care.