Why Better Parks Begin with Better Relationships with Rachel Franchina | Episode 97

Rachel Franchina: And and as you said, it always comes down to the people. How do we support the people, whether it's an employee or a partner or a community member or whoever, how do we sort the peop support the people who want to, you know, support that access, access to the outdoor recreation as well as conservation, stewardship, all that good stuff.

Chris Lee: Great parks and healthy landscapes are the products of strong leadership. This show is dedicated to helping you become that leader. This is the Parks and Restoration Podcast. We're on a mission to help you leave a legacy of healthy ecosystems, quality parks, and future generations of people who care about the natural world. Find show notes, links, and other information on our website, parksandrestoration.com. And now, let's get to today's episode. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Parks and Restoration Podcast. I am Chris Lee, your host. I am joined today by Rachel Franchina. She spent 20 years working for the U.S. Forest Service as an outdoor recreation planner, program manager, and the Continental Divide National Scenic Trail Administrator. She also served on the board of the Society of Outdoor Recreation Professionals, or SORP, because we government types really like our acronyms. She was there for nine years and now serves as SORP's executive director. Rachel is also the owner of Ruby Mountain Consulting, where she works with agencies, nonprofits, and collaborative groups to find common ground for enjoying the outdoors. Rachel uses her knowledge of land management, recreation planning, and visitor use management, and collaboration and facilitation to support the outdoor recreation professionals that connect people to the outdoors and protect natural and cultural resources. Most importantly, Rachel enjoys skiing, hiking, camping and rafting with her husband and two boys. She has a bachelor's of science in recreation resource management from the University of Montana and a Masters of Science in Natural Resource Recreation from Virginia Tech. Rachel, happy to have you on. Welcome to the show.

Rachel Franchina: Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me on.

Chris Lee: Yeah. So I came across you by way of podcast, actually. So you host the Planning the Wild podcast, which is a great podcast. It's all about helping Forest Service professionals out there in the in the Northwest. But what I really like most about it is at the end of the description, it says it helps people make smart, informed decisions that serve both people and the land. And the that really jumped out at me because one of the the kind of guiding principles behind parks and restoration, I is, you know, I narrow it down into one sentence, but it's for the land via the people that serve it. And, you know, you can see the behind me here, the the tagline for parks and restoration is better leaders, better parks. And this whole show is really built on developing the people that serve the land. And so I think our our our missions, our focus is really kind of aligned on that. Tell me a little bit about the podcast, how that came to be and you know, a little bit about your background, I guess.

Rachel Franchina: Yeah, sounds good, Chris. Yeah. I think that that intersection of people in land and nature, right, is what's always driven me, although maybe I couldn't articulate that well until until I got older, right? But the podcast Planning the Wild came about through a partnership agreement that SORP has with the US Forest Service, specifically in the Pacific Northwest area. and as you read in my bio, right, I worked for the Forest Service for a long time and still have many strong connections to that agency. my husband's still a Forest Service employee. And through SORP, we've developed a number of partnership agreements. And this one with the Pacific Northwest area, Pacific Northwest region, is for recreation training and technical assistance. and what does that mean? Well, that means a lot of different things, and we've kind of explored a lot of different things through that through that partnership agreement. and the Forest Service has had a lot of changes and challenges in the last few years from budgets and fires and other natural disasters, workforce reductions, those kind of things. About a year and a half ago, I was working with the program manager for this partnership and We were just thinking about like what can we do that helps support employees knowing they really don't have time to sit down and do a training. we can't really travel right now. There's a lot of limitations on on travel, and just a lot of restrictions on, you know, even doing honestly at that time about a year and a half ago on on even having external trainers come and support the agency, that's changed now. But we're like, let's do a podcast. And I was like, Great. Sounds good. I've always wanted to do a podcast through SORP. So that's how it all came about. And so we decided to call it Planning the Wild because it's focused on recreation planning, as you said, specifically in the Forest Service, right? And you know, to be honest, there aren't many what we would call true recreation planners in the Forest Service. there's a handful, but most folks in the Forest Service, as in a lot of different agencies, wear many, many hats, right? They're they're They're doing operations, they're doing environmental compliance, the or you know, in the forces they'll say it as an EPA. they'll they're doing admin, they're doing yeah, everything, right? And so we were just really focused on how can we provide some perspectives and tips and just kind of help people see that, you know, if even if they're not just sitting down and doing rough planning, because who has time for that, what are some ways they can really think like a planner? And so that's where that the idea for the podcast came from. And we decided to kind of first season look at different partners and the outdoor recreation economy because that's such a driver for people kind of understanding and knowing about outdoor recreation, right? tourism. And yet, right, all of it is based on the land, the resources, the conservation, and the motto of the Forest Service is. caring for the land and serving people, right? So you can see that tagline for the for the podcast you know, aligns with that. And and as you said, it always comes down to the people. How do we support the people, whether it's an employee or a partner or a community member or whoever, how do we sort the peop support the people who want to, you know, support that access, access to the outdoor recreation as well as conservation, stewardship, all that good stuff.

Chris Lee: Yeah. It's it's cool that this conversation comes up. It's been on my mind a little bit. And I'm I'm working on this online leadership program and and it well in my leadership journey. So I you know, I started out as a field guy, went into to wildlife biology. you know, I I I wanted to be a wildlife biologist and and so I started out managing lands for Bob Whitequail here in the Midwest and and my focus always had been for the resource. The focus was on the resource. You know, I wanted to conserve the species. I want to conserve the natural resources. I wanted to focus on that. And as I rose up into into management roles and then into leadership role, now as executive director of a county conservation department, I realized that that everything is people. Like like there is no management without people willing to do the management. There is no resource conservation without people willing to conserve the resources. And certainly here in the Midwest where so much of our land is is privately owned. You know, the if you're not working with the with the people that own and control the land, you're you're you're not a you're not accomplishing anything. And and and I I mean the same thing holds true no matter where you go, whether it's public land or private land or anything, you've got to have the people willing willing to to do it. And it was it it was a bit of a sea change. It had it was a a major kind of mindset shift that, okay in order to get the results that we want, you know, the the the focus has got to be on on the people and and and getting them you know part of this. And that's where I think outdoor recreation comes into play in in so much of this is, you know, like Otto Leopold said, the objective is to teach the student to see the land, to understand what he sees and and to you know, and then by extension, strive to protect that which he understands, right? And and and loves what he understands. I totally butchered that quote for sure, but y you get the concept, right? And you know, and and that's kind of our focus through our environmental education programming is how do we connect people to the outdoors, get doing things, and then get them to fall in love with the outdoors because then they're gonna want to then they're gonna care about it. Then they're going to want to conserve it later on. And i is that kind of the the driving force behind a a lot of of kind of what you're talking about there?

Rachel Franchina: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you're, you know, right on, Chris, right? A lot of people come to resource management, conservation and stewardship, right? Like you did, biologist, hydrologist, whatever, right? The all theologists, because they're passionate about that resource, right? And then they say, wait, we actually have to work with people. It's actually about working, whether it's whether it's your colleagues and an interdisciplinary team or or the landowners or whomever, right? Like it's you know, we kind of get we kind of get in this to be alone and be out in the woods or be out on the prairie or wherever it is to do our thing and be with the animals and make sure the animals are healthy and the habitats are healthy. But then we're like, but we we need those people. And so, you know, I I think a lot of what we do focuses on, you know, how do we understand what's important, what those values are, and how e to your point, like, how do we make sure these places are relevant to the next generation? And I always like to say like I don't think the greatest threat is the amount of use, but and we can get in this later, but it's not the amount of use, but it's a lack of relevance. If people are not enjoying these places, then they won't say, We need to protect these. We need to, you know, make sure that we're managing these appropriately.

Chris Lee: Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, there's there's kind of two sides of that that same coin in that there's there's maybe the the lack of use in some respects, but then you know, like like with some of the national parks, like it's it's loving it to death. You know, they they've had to restrict entries and and and stuff. I'm curious, has Forest Service lands ha have they seen a huge uptick in visitor numbers? along the lines of the way the national park, because like from my own experience, I know my my brother was actually just looking to go up to the boundary waters. And you know, and it it's you gotta get a permit and everything like that. But there's all of this national forest around it, the superior national forest, and and that is much less restrictive to go into. He's like, why not just go into there? And and so it makes me wonder, has there's been a huge uptick, you know, during the the COVID area and and kind of since that has brought a lot more people into Forest Service lands and and then, you know, now you've got you've got resource managers that went into this for the resource that are now finding themselves in a position where they've really got to be considering outdoor recreation and and the the visitation side of things more so than they ever had before. Is is that what you're seeing?

Rachel Franchina: Yes, yes. in the Boundary Waters is the superior natural forest. It is a natural forest area, not not a natural park. Right. So in the Boundary Waters, right? Sorry. Yeah, Boundary Waters you know, is a wilderness area and has kind of been was one of the I guess first kind of forest service areas to implement like permits and in entry, you know, the different entry locations and all that good stuff, right? And so yeah, I mean I think, you know certainly during and and post pandemic, we you know, we saw that spike just in general across in outdoor recreation participation. and it it leveled off a little bit. But I always I like to say too, like we it it we knew it was coming. It's always kind of been coming. And then then, you know, I live in Colorado, right? Like it's been coming for a long time in Colorado. Yeah. Sure. In other of these like Lake Tahoe and some of these Moab and you know some of these destination areas. It's it's definitely been and it was like amplified by the pandemic. And it hasn't gone away. And but I think, yeah, in general across the the Forest Service, there are definitely places that have seen that spike and have really you know, the they're trying to figure out like similar to the National Park Service. And and in fact, the Forest Service, along with the Park Service and several other federal land and water management agencies are part of what's called the Interagency Visit Use Management Council, I V UMC, like we love our acronyms, as you said. which creates creates a created the guidance around managing visitors and protecting natural and cultural resources, which SORP now does training on for like, you know, both federal and non federal audiences. So and I was part of that council.

Chris Lee: A future episode for sure.

Rachel Franchina: Yeah, we could type super deep dive into VM. We won't do that right now. But like, yeah. And so more and more, yes, absolutely more forest services. I mean, this the guidance has been out for a decade. and it builds on, you know, previous recreation planning. guidance and frameworks and all that good stuff. But, you know, the Forest Service, I was actually talking to some colleagues yesterday about some projects they're doing in California, but they're doing Colorado, Washington, Oregon, right? They're all over the country really, not just the West. they're they're doing more of that, you know, okay, how do we, how do we welcome people these places, but manage it in a way that both protects the experience and protects the resources.

Chris Lee: Yeah. So that's a good segue into SORP, the Society of Outdoor Recreation Professionals. So tell me a little bit more about that. I'll I'll admit I didn't really know anything about it prior to kind of stumbling across your podcast and and then kind of digging into it. But you know, w why does it exist and and what have you seen as far as some of the the biggest benefits it's bringing to the to the members and you know and kind of the focus areas that you're bringing to members through that.

Rachel Franchina: Yeah. So SOARP has been around since the early eighties. as you said in my bio, right, I was on the I was one of those people I was a boarded on the board of directors, board president, all that fun stuff. And then I became executive director. So I'm very committed to this organization. I, you know, joined the board and was a member before that when I worked for the Forest Service. And like a lot of people, I came across it because of the the conference. used to be annual after the my pandemic, we moved to biannual. just had our last one about two months ago in Duluth, Minnesota. and, you know, it yeah, it moves around, moves around. It's only been in the US so far, although we have a number of Canadian members, but hard to hard to get support for folks from the US to especially federal agencies to travel up to Canada. So our Canadians, yeah, Canadians will come down to us, which is wonderful. But yeah, we have members from across the spectrum of outdoor recreation planning and management. And we kind of, you know, we've evolved over the years. when it first started in the 80s, it was a fairly narrow focus group. And it was specifically on the statewide comprehensive outdoor recreation plan planners, scorp planners. Every state has a scorpion you're probably familiar with those, Chris, and I'm sure many of your listeners are. Right. So that and that is still a core audience of our organization. We work very closely with the National Park Service and, you know, the states, consultants, researchers, all those folks who are doing SCORP planning. and so it evolved from there. Then eventually in the nine mid nineties, it was like, okay, well, we're not just SWARP planners. There's a need to do kind of this broader natural resource recreation planning. So then So evolved to there and kind of included, you know, and that's where more of the federal agencies beyond the Park Service, SCORP folks, you know, Forest Service, BLM, state agencies, they started kind of getting more engaged. And then about 14 years ago, 14, 15 years ago, kind of evolved again into SORP society of outdoor recreation professionals. And you know, which causes confusion between the whole SCORP. thing in SORP. I don't know why we did that. It was right before I got on the board, but whatever. It doesn't matter. You know, it is what it is. So so broaden again a little bit to, you know, really I like to say the people who plan, manage, and provide outdoor recreation as a public service. And nowadays, right, that includes that includes destination stewardship, you know, tourism people who are want people to come to their places because of the outstanding natural resource amenities they have, but they want to do it in a thoughtful way. So it's not, you know, impacting the health and productivity and sustainability and stewardship of all those resources. So we have a lot of you know, folks who work in that realm. We have a lot of consultants who do rec planning and supporting, you know, agencies doing that type of work. We have county, you know, we have county and local jurisdictions, and more and more even municipalities that, you know, have maybe bro branched out from kind of traditional municipal parks and recreation, you know, swimming pools and and are getting into trails and some of the more nature based. Yeah. You know, right? May maybe not whole departments, but they have a couple people or one or two people who are doing that type of work and they're going, wait a minute, you know, in our PA, National Recreation Park Station, great, right? But it's focused on that, you know, more traditional municipal. And so they kind of stumble on upon us as well and go, okay, here's here's here are the people who are kind of doing the same work as I am. And that's what I love about SOARP is like wherever we're coming from, we're we're kind of all dealing with the same things. How do we, how do we welcome people? How do we manage these resources? How do we address, you know, climate impacts and, you know, disasters and be more resilient? all that kind of good stuff. And as I mentioned, we have a number of, you know, Canadian agencies and individuals who, you know, again, same thing, whether it's US or Canada, we're all kind of dealing with the same thing. So it's a great place to bring people to it's that community, right? Bringing people together. And yes, we have a conference, but You know, not everybody can come to that every other year. So we do a number of other things to try to create that community.

Chris Lee: Cool. so several questions that the you bring up this this concept of of like multi agency or or you know kind of breaking down the silos. you know, that's one of my my big dreams for what I'm doing here with with parks and restoration is is trying to bring all of us together that are working in the outdoor recreation and conservation space and and and bridge that gap a little bit because oftentimes what we see is you know, you've got like the the municipal park types that are very focused on the on the built environment. But you know, that built environment is actually maybe just a small segment of this overall property that they have and and you know have opportunity to manage on. And, you know, oftentimes the the forested areas or the timbered areas or or that that draw that you, you know, can't really get trails down into kind of becomes kind of forgotten. You know, I've I've seen that in in some city parks. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you've got like the natural resource people that, you know, really don't want to do any of the built environment stuff and and you know build the some of the creature comforts and you know they're very much like just don't even touch this and and you know almost to the point where, you know, I hate to admit this, but they're like, just stay away. Like just just you know what, don't even find that balance and and and how do we come together as a as a broader industry and, you know, not so much these silos. What are some of the other things that so you got the the national conference that happens every two years. what are some of the other things that that SOARP does? Because I really love this idea of community. And I I absolutely believe that the way society is going, the way technology is going, that this this concept of bringing humans together in in some capacity, ideally in person, is going to become increasingly valuable and and in and increasingly necessary in the coming years as as we have AI in our pocket that, you know, we can just chat with and it's and it's almost like I mean, AI and and I'm not a huge techie guy, but I mean AI is a daily collaborator with me right now. I mean, I'm using it daily. And, you know, and I I've seen the studies on how like people have formed companionship with with an AI system and like young people are turning to these before they turn to another human to talk about very sensitive emotional things. And so I'm just like, man, how do how do we how do we build community? How do we get people together? How do we how do we make it clear that we we are doing this together? You're not isolated, you're not alone. It's not just, you know, you out there in that Forest Service land or you in that county park or you in that city park and you know, just mowing the grass all by yourself or or managing the resources all by yourself. There's a whole society and the and a whole community of people that are here and got your back and are dealing with the same issues, right? And and And so that that's that's really what I'm trying to figure out how how we do as as leaders and you know and as people that have platforms like you and I with a podcast or serve in a in you know some sort of executive role, we've got an outsized opportunity, you know, and out and and outsized ability because of our our positions to to maybe do that. And so I'm just kind of curious how is how is SORP doing some of that? Ready to take your leadership to the next level? Join the Next Level Leadership Community at parksandrestoration.com. You'll get practical leadership insights and exclusive invitations to live meetups and trainings. Be part of the movement we're creating. Join the Next Level Leadership Community at parksandrestoration.com.

Rachel Franchina: Yeah, I mean, great question. Same thing, right? Yeah. As much as I love AI, and use it to, you know, make my life easier, right? I think there's also this, you know, there's somewhat of a backlash, pr particularly from some of the younger folks going like, you know, we you know, we we don't want that to be. at least some are starting to recognize and I think like that is our role, Chris, is like, how do we foster that community and kind of like you know, when we were young up and comers, you know, s you know, the the mentorship. So that that is one thing. We have a mentorship program. we just piloted it the la in the last year, gonna do our kind of second iteration early in 2027. so really, you know, supporting people w wherever they're at in their career, whether it's whether they're young and just starting or mid-career and want to do a change. and we do find a lot of folks come kind of come into this profession. I don't know if you see this too, but they may come into this because they've been doing something else and and say, I always wanted to do something in the outdoors and just, you know, they get into that kind of midpoint of their career or their life and say, I'm going to do something different. So supporting people throughout their careers. so the mentorship program, I mean we do we do lots of webinars, you know, and try to kind of f share those Best practices, share those examples. You know, what are other people doing? And what are those nuggets that like even if my even if my, you know, landscape, my my place is very different than what's being described in this example, like, but I can see, I can see where I can take those pieces and apply them to to my place. certainly that happens during the conference as well, but you know, right, we can't, you know, we can't get everybody together all the time. So we we also, I mean, we do have some online. Like we have discussion forums where folks members can share resources, ask questions of each other. And we find that that's kind of a challenging place. We want to be outside, right? We don't want to be on the computer. We all have enough computer stuff to do. so and and you know, it has ebbs and flows. but you know, we We we provide that space and and kind of encourage people to use that to ask questions of each other. Cause it's, you know, somebody's somebody, whatever you're dealing with, somebody's probably dealt with it before, somebody in the, you know, out there. So so those kind of things. And then and then as I said, we do, you know, we do trainings, right? So again, kind of focused on mostly topic, you know, very topic-specific type of trainings where but visitor use management being a very good example because so many of us are trying to figure out like how do we provide these. you know, great experiences and manage the resources, you know, in an effective way. And again, regardless of where people are working, I think there's been kind of a misconception around visitor use management that it's only the national park examples. It's only the like the Rocky Mountain National Park or, you know, some of the places that are arches or, you know, Acadia, some of these places that have like the timed entries or permits. That's not it at all. I mean that they're certainly part of it. But There are many, many examples where I mean visitor use management really is just about like kind of making informed choices about how to, you know, how to manage the people in the place. and it doesn't have to be that complicated. So so we use, you know, we use examples from non-federal, you know, from case studies, I should say. We we use real world examples and then, you know, change the details to protect the innocent. So in the training. And then people are like, and you know, give them an opportunity to kind of work through like how could this apply. in in my area. So though I mean again though, I think it's those are, you know, one of the biggest challenges is like everyone, you know, when when people do come together, when when we get together for a conference or for a training or whatever it may be, we do host like, you know, regional meetups occasionally. people just love it, right? They get they get so energized and enthused and it you know, we constantly hear, gosh, now I feel like I can go back and, you know kind of I'm re energized and I can, you know, go back and and kind of address these issues that have been, you know, really, really challenging for me and and have some new energy to to to do that.

Chris Lee: Yeah. And and that's really what it's about. Is it's it's forming that connection and realizing you're not alone out there. That you know, there's other people out there that are dealing with this or have dealt with this and and you know, even though oftentimes we we because we are separated and we're, you know, geographically separated, we can't necessarily get together, but can we build systems and and you know, and that's one of the the big things that I'm trying to figure out through through some of the stuff that I'm working on is like how do how do I build those systems to not only just give the knowledge, but to share the experiences. You know, and and I mean that's how this show started was that I was seeing county conservation directors retire and I'm like, man, that's that's a lot of a lot of institutional knowledge that's leaving our system here. I I just I want to capture that. And so I just I started having recorded interviews with some of them and and I'm like, I don't know, this is kind of neat. I like sitting down with interesting people and just picking their brains and and and then the podcast was born. And so yeah, I I think that's a great thing. I want to I wanna take a little bit of a left turn here. You said that you started out as on the board of SORP. What drew you to doing that in the first place? 'Cause that's one of the things I'm I'm interested in is like like what draws people into a leadership position and and what cultivates that that willingness to serve on boards or be on grant review committees or you know, to to step up and most of the time it's a step out of your comfort zone. Yes. And y and you know, sometimes these feel like really big roles and and and they are. what drew you to that and and what was that experience, certainly when you first came on, but then kind of over time?

Rachel Franchina: Yeah, that's a great question. And I I kinda laugh because when I got I got recruited to the board. I had attended the confr the annual conference several years in a row and gotten to know some of the the board members and it was not something that was on my radar. Like I was, you know, at the time they would do, you know, every year they would do a call for nominations for board members and I'm sure I saw it but I never thought, that's not, you know, that's not something I could do, right? Like and yeah, the, you know, a couple of board members at the time said Hey Rachel, we think you'd be a great board member. And you know, we we kind of laughed at the time. It's like they'd take you out for a drink and be like, hey, you know.

Chris Lee: Break you down.

Rachel Franchina: yeah, it breaks you down a little bit. But but they convinced me and I was like, okay, okay, I can do this. and so that was in I got on the board in 2013. So yeah, 13 years ago. And and you know, it I you know, I think for for me and for a lot of our board members, you know, it's it's often their first time serving on a board. our board members tend to be practitioners, right? They're they're in the profession practitioners, right? We don't have board members who are, you know, in accounting or finance or lawyers or anything like that. you know, we're we're people who do this type of work. So so it's kind of a learning curve. Like, well, what does that mean? What what what is my role as a board member? And, you know, what am I supposed to do? And so I think and I I think this is still, you know, pretty true for for board members at SOARP is, you know, it's it's you know, what how do I best contribute? And I think the first maybe year or so is kind of learning, like understanding, you know, even though maybe I've been a member for a while, like, okay, what's what is that back end? what does that back end look like? When I joined the board in twenty thirteen, it was still very much a working board. We did have a part-time association manager. We did not have an executive director at the at that point. and you know, the board was working with the association manager to put on the conference every year. So that was really all the organization had capacity to do was to put on an annual conference and do some newsletters. and then, you know, then we started doing webinars. Those kind of became, you know, like, that's something we can do. before it was this was pre Zoom. I don't you know, like what do we all use before Zoom? We use something, but go to meeting or something.

Chris Lee: I do.

Rachel Franchina: and then yeah, so then we just kind of, you know, sl slowly, you know, again, seeing that need to connect people. Conference was always great. People were always excited. What other ways can we connect people? okay, let's do some webinars and share some, you know, share some you know, lessons learned at best practices that way. Okay, well let's, you know, let's do some, you know, do some other programs. and eventually we said you know, we think we do need an executive director and I I was board president at that time so kind of help facilitate that process and what does that look like and how do we fund that and all those kind of good things. So for me, like being on the board and in and even be be becoming president was, you know, was a big leap because I like, do I had two young children at the time. Do I really have time for this? I probably didn't, but I but I did it and I did it for four years. And unfortunately, you know working for the four service, I had support to, you know, to do my board service as well. Right. Like it was never a problem, never a problem. And that's not always the case, you know, but you know, hopefully agencies value professional development and and support people to do that. So yeah, I think it was always like a learning. And then, you know, throughout to that too, the board kind of evolved and you know, in the last few years has become a more, you know, now that we have executive director and a couple of other staff, we have a strategic board and not a working board and And the organization just keeps evolving and kind of, you know, just supporting the supporting the profession to help people do their best jobs.

Chris Lee: I I love that hearing that trajectory of how it went, you know, kind of from a working board to, you know, well, you know, maybe maybe we should have a full time staff person and you know, and then hiring that on and then growing it into some additional support staff and and you know, and then the makeup of the board changes. And I I had a an episode here a while back talking about the Great Outdoors Foundation. It's a it's a big conservation foundation here in Iowa. and and the trajectory that they took from from a a friends group for a county conservation department that, you know, kind of existed to to sell firewood and do, you know, some fundraising to this now, you know, I think it's like a fifteen person organization and they've got a statewide footprint and I don't know, they've got multi millions of dollars being deployed in different ways and it

Rachel Franchina: I listened to that one 'cause I was like, I want to hear how they did that. So yes, it's

Chris Lee: It's really cool. And and so I I love hearing that that trajectory. and and I'm sure that had to have come with a little bit of consternation along the of like, man, is this, you know, is this the thing to do? I like you said yourself, like is this really what I want to do? You know, I've got two kids and and but it it sounds like this all comes back to supportive people along the way. Like like you were you were recruited to the board, you had people that reached out to you and said, Hey, I think there's something about you that they saw that they're like, we want that to be part of this organization. And, you know, it wasn't just let's let's throw this application out there and, you know, and see who bites, which sometimes works. Yeah. But

Rachel Franchina: And we do that.

Chris Lee: yeah, exactly. And and and oftentimes it's like twisting arms to try to get somebody to to fill those roles. but if you can cultivate that relationship, I think this is a leadership superpower that I I know I've seen in my career. the the leadership roles that I've stepped into, the board positions that I've served on or the committees or the groups that I've served on, almost inevitably it was because somebody I knew and respected reached out to me and said, you would bring something valuable to this, not just, you know, we've got the seat to fill. You're a warm body, come come fill it. Like it's that's that's not what I want. But if if somebody's coming to me and saying, hey, you you have something to to offer here and we want to capitalize on that and and and we think that would bring value to this organization and and having that alignment of mission, that's a very different dynamic, right? And so I think maybe there's a a leadership lesson for for those listening is, you know, if you're if you have board positions to fill, are you cultivating those relationships? Are you looking around you and seeing, okay, who would who would be the next person that we would love to be able to reach out to or if that doesn't exist, who can we cultivate so that they're ready to go in the in the coming years when we do have a position open or s or or something to that degree. and so yeah, it that that's kind of what I'm hearing. And

Rachel Franchina: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You know, yeah, that kind of, you know, who's who's really engaged? and I think that's how the board really approaches it now, is like I said, yeah, sometimes they'll do a kind of more open call for nominations depending on how many board positions are available. But you know, sometimes it'll be more like, you know, who who's been really committed to this organization, served on committees, volunteered for the conference, whatever it may be, and can really, you know, we we know you know, can bring a skill set and and you know, honestly a passion, right, for this organization that that will help, you know, move this organization along. So I think you're right on Chris, like it's cultivating those relationships and you know, kind of helping people see see how they can contribute.

Chris Lee: Yeah. And and then the next step down that line, and I'd be curious to to see if you had this when when you first came on the board is having someone there that that has your back. Like like just jumping onto a board and and you know, and coming out swinging, like, that's you maybe that happens sometimes, but certainly if it's a you know, if it's like a national board position like with Storb, you know, that's that's kind of a big role and and there's a learning curve and and you know, there's that that you know, just kind of like I I don't want to come in here and and and stir the pot and and, you know, make some mistakes or anything. And so having someone there that hey, I I've got your back. I'll show you the ropes. you know, I'll make sure you don't fall flat on your face in your first year. was there someone there on the board that that had that that you had do that with?

Rachel Franchina: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I I think we've gotten better at that. but definitely like when I joined the board, right, and there's a couple of people who were on the board then who I'm still, you know, really close with. it was you know, that we were able they were able to support me and and I think we've we've formalized that a bit more now, or the board has formalized that a bit more now so that it's more you know, explicit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: Yep. And I mean that could go for any position, really. I mean, whether it's a board position or a a a staff position, you know, or or even just among the the volunteer rank. mean, let's face it, a lot of us agencies use a lot of volunteers, or unpaid staff in in some capacity. And, you know, and I think that's something we need to have in our mind. Like it's one thing to invite volunteers to come do our thing whatever it is we we ask them to do. It's something else to say, Hey, you know, potential volunteer, I see that you've got something that you could bring to this organization. We would love you to bring that here and we will help you along the way. Like we're not just gonna throw you to the wolves or, you know, we're not just gonna, you know, hand you a bunch of tools and say, here, there, there's the trail, go fix it. It's, you know, we're gonna we're gonna bring you on, we're gonna onboard you a little bit. We're going to bring you into our ecosystem some and and build that comfort level and then, you know, build them up along the way to kind of cultivate that that relationship. And the the organizations that I've seen do that really well, they they do a really great job of keeping people, whether it's staff or volunteers or board members or whatever. and and they have a a a really now they have a a pipeline because now the people that are in want to go out and get more. You know? And and so

Rachel Franchina: Best advocates, right? Because they enjoy it so much. Yes. I agree. And I think I've seen, you know, I seen I've seen that get better over the years. And I'm thinking about my forest service career. Like I think there's much more emphasis on, yeah, actually it takes some effort and energy to manage volunteers, right? And and you know, a lot more intentionality around that, you know, now than there was when I first started. Mm-hmm.

Chris Lee: For sure. All right. One more thing I wanted to to bring up that I come across prior to having this conversation, this outdoor recreation professional competency framework. Mm-hmm. So walk me through this. What what is this and and what is this bringing to the outdoor recreation profession?

Rachel Franchina: Yeah. So we recently, just just a couple months ago, finalized, I'll say the first version of this outdoor recreation professional competency framework. We can just call it the framework for short, or competencies. and this came about because at SOARP, and then and through another partnership with the US Forest Service through their headquarters in Washington, we saw a gap, right? That there is no definition of an outdoor recreation professional, right? There's no like, you know, yes, there are degree programs. Yes, there are people doing this work, obviously. But there's no like, okay, what does it take to do this work? And so big kudos to the Forest Service for one saying, yeah, we agree. they have been going through a kind of a a process for the last few years to kind of prioritize recreation and and you know making it making sure that folks with throughout the agency kind of have support for managing recreation. Obviously it's a multi use agency. There's a lot going on there, but recreation being one of those. and so they they said, yeah, we we need to define what it is, what it takes to do this work. And if we're gonna do this, this has to be a very collaborative and and not just for the Forest Service. Like we have to have kind of the whole realm of outdoor recreation professionals, and not just the Forest Service. We'll you know, we'll take it and use it how we need to, the Forest Service. And we're continuing that work now with them through partnership. so, but yeah, big kudos to them for saying this isn't just a forest service thing. This is like, you know, a profession or industry-wide thing. That being said, right, it's not for everybody, right? This isn't like All outdoor recreation because the industry is so big and so huge and has so many different facets. So specifically when we say outdoor recreation professional, we mean, like I said a few minutes ago, people who plan, manage, and provide outdoor recreation as a public service. Right. So land managers, but not, I mean, certainly nonprofits, land conservancies, right, who are private, but you know, providing public service, public access to these places. And it as well as, you know, consultants and the academic, kind of practitioner focus academic community. so that's kind of how we define it and and it is that professional, meaning like probably not the entry level, not the field based folks, all really important as well. And certainly we want to make sure it links to, you know, folks who wanna move from kind of that field based to to more of a manager type of role. not necessarily a supervisor. But you know, more in that kind of professional type of position, program manager, that type of stuff. and it it identifies a set of 40 competencies or skills that these folks that that kind of define what these folks do. Now, that doesn't mean everybody has every skill, and certainly that is not an expectation. Not everybody's gonna have every skill. That's not desirable even, right? And that's but that was some of the an early feedback we got. What? You mean I have to know everything in all these, you know, however many competencies, right? No, no, no, no. It means that, you know, based on the position you're in now, the position you want in the future, you know, look at these competencies, look at these skills, l assess w, you know, what you're already good at, what you already have some knowledge in. Where you need to grow. And that's how it helps support your professional development, your training. Similarly, organizations can take the framework, like I mentioned with the Forest Service. And they and other organizations are also doing this, agencies, and they can say, like, okay, well, what does this mean? What does it mean for our organization? What does it mean for position descriptions? What does it mean for hiring? What does it mean for performance reviews, all those kind of things. And so we're actually doing a webinar series right now throughout July. and we have the recordings available too, right? Just talking about what is the framework, how are different individuals, organizations, universities, also adopting it for both kind of the programmatic university program as well as mentoring and supporting students, Yeah, as far as you know, kind of making sure they get the the classes and the credits they need. So yeah, so so I think it's pretty exciting because because we haven't had anything like this. Other disciplines have this. They, you know, landscape architecture, wildlife biology, forestry, those are you know, related disciplines, they already have this. certainly outside of natural resources, many, many disciplines, engineering, nursing, you know, they those all those disciplines have competencies. Right. And we didn't have anything. So now we have something. And now we can start you using it and really implementing it. And you know, all along we've said this is adaptable and adjustable. And as I said, it's version one. We'll iterate it and as we need to kind of update, evolve, add. And I'm super excited to see how different organizations say, like, right, these competencies aren't quite applic applicable to us, but here's some other ones we want to include in our kind of our adapt. adaptation of this framework.

Chris Lee: Okay. Yeah. I I like that. 'cause I mean, I know just in my experience, I'll get a question, you know, I'll have some high school kid or something that'll get a hold of me and say, Hey, I want to do what you do. what do I do? You know, or like what do I need to know? and I'm like, Well, I don't know. You know, they're like, I want to job shadow you. Like, you really want to come here and watch me sit in meetings and answer emails all day? Like, go go do a job shadow one of the field guys. but I could see there being huge value to that of like, okay. You know, go go onto SORP, find their their outdoor rec professional competency framework, look through that, and that's some of the skills that in the course of a career, you know, depending on on and there's almost infinite ways a person could go in the outdoor rec or conservation space for sure. but go through that and and kind of see what really resonates with you and and grab onto those and and start developing that. and if a person gets an early jump on that, that I think there's huge value in focusing, right? Of like, I I I I want to go into outdoor recreation, I want to go into conservation. I think well, okay. What what does what does that really mean? You know, like like working in county conservation for a s a a smaller even one of the large county conservation departments here in Iowa is very different than working for the Forest Service out in in, you know, out west, which is very different than working for the National Park Service, which would be very different than working for the BLM, very different than working for a state agency. and and so, I'd I I remember my my youngest brother was looking to go into this kind of work and I I mind mapped one time like all the different ways he might go into outdoors. Right. And like I had to pull out multiple pages. I had I had multiple pages taped together because I needed a a a a larger canvas to to lay all these out. so yeah, it's I I think that's that's really cool. Where would somebody go to find this?

Rachel Franchina: Yeah, so on the SORP website, which is www.recpro r e c o dot org. you can look under professional development and at the very top it says competencies. and I can certainly share the link with you to put in the show notes and all that good stuff. and yeah, it's got some downloadable resources. We're we're working on some other tools and resources to share with folks. so they can do that self-assessment and kind of understand, you know. where they want to go. And and I think you make a really good point about particularly like, you know, people who want to get into this career. We have we have a huge issue right in in this field in kind of outdoor recreation and conservation is like we don't have enough people. You know, we need more people in the in the pipeline. And so, you know, yeah, people may be coming kind of mid career or changing careers. and so the competencies kind of give them something and be like, okay, what skills do I need to develop to, you know, make that career change. But yeah, certainly young people too. And in because a couple of presentations we've done, we've gotten really strong interest from educators who work with high school students or, you know, college students and saying like, this would be super. I'm doing a presentation to a youth corps in Colorado next week. and I think, you know, getting more and more kind of engaged with some of those those types of programs, used in conservation cores where, you know, creating that pipeline so that folks can see like I think that's been a another problem is A lot of folks don't see these careers as super stable because people have to work seasonally or it's low paying. I mean, all that stuff is true, right? That's not going away necessarily. But like there is there is a career tra trajectory, right, that folks can get into.

Chris Lee: Yep. Yeah, you don't go into this line of work for the money. You go into it, you know, for for the passion and and you know, the the opportunities that afford you to either work outside or or affect a resource or connect people to the resource. And yeah. that that yeah, that I could see a huge value in having a a set of competencies that okay, if I develop these, I'm probably going to be fairly successful in in this profession. I think that's fantastic. I'm glad you guys did that. Thank you. And I suppose folks can go to recpro dot org as well and find out how to become members and and engage with with SOARP. Yeah. Wonderful.

Rachel Franchina: We have a number of agency or organizational memberships. So if you have a question about that, is my organization a member? Just reach out. reach out to me and we'll we can help you out.

Chris Lee: Wonderful. so one last question here as we wrap up. I I like to ask this question of of folks I have on here. If you could give one message to leaders in the parks and conservation space, you know, what would it be? Like I I I've heard this asked, like, okay, if you could put a billboard out there that all everybody in in this profession could see with a message on it or, you know, kind of a parting thought, what what would that be for You know, this is very much focused on developing leaders in our space. what what would be your parting message?

Rachel Franchina: Hmm. Build relationships, right? It's it's it in like how we started the this session, Chris, it's about the people, right? Care invest in your people, build relationships. take the time, right? Take the time to build those relationships and understand what motivates people, whether it's an employee or whether it's a partner or somebody else, right? Just just spend that time and it pays off dividends in the end.

Chris Lee: Language there. That's that's one of the the key components to this whole framework that I teach in my s my speeches and programs and stuff. let me let me dig into that just a little bit deeper. What how? you know, yeah, build relationships like like what have you seen as as effective ways of doing that?

Rachel Franchina: gosh, yeah, great question. I say what what's worked for me, right, is asking questions, right? Learning about people and finding commonality. I'm I'm a connector and it took me a long time to realize like that's one of my natural superpowers is just being able to connect and kind of, you know, connect with people and be like, hey Chris, we both went to I don't know where, we both went to Chicago, you know, in in July nineteen ninety nine I don't know, right? I'm making that up obviously. But just like finding something that we have in common, whatever it may be. And then from there just kinda like, okay, exploring that. Well what else? What in what else, you know, what else do you like? And and how you know, and and so I think just kind of approaching it with that curiosity and just, you know, trying to understand what makes people tick and what makes them excited and, you know, what's gets them out of bed. And of course I think in our profession, our discipline, that's pretty easy 'cause we we we all tend to have something in common. We all kinda got into this for similar reasons. And I think, you know, finding what that is, not that you're gonna have something in common with everyone, right? But even like, we both drink coffee or you know, whatever it may be. Just kind of trying to find something in common with folks and then go from there. Cause then I think when you do have, you know, those more tense moments or there's conflict or, you know, you're not seeing s you know on the same page, you can kinda like, or at least I do go back to be like, okay, well this this is This is just a person. This person is just a person. They have their own things going on in their life, just like I do. You know, maybe I'm not having my best day. And I just kind of have to remind myself, like, not that I'm perfect, but like, you know, that that everybody everybody's a person. and especially I think in leadership roles, right? Where we're, you know, sometimes we're managing up and down and across and all that kind of stuff. Like, these are just people. We're all just people. We're all humans and we all live on this one beautiful planet that we have.

Chris Lee: Yeah. that's that's a great way of putting it. And I think a great way. great thing to end on there is hey, we you know, we are just human and and if we can be intentional about connecting with those around us and building those relationships, we can th we we can accomplish so much. We can do so much together. You know, there's there's only so much that any of us can do on our own. There's only so much of the resource that we can affect on our own or or or you know, so many people that we can connect to the resource or or to the outdoor recreation amenity on our own. But when we when we come together, when we work together, when we truly collaborate and and when we truly recognize that we're not alone out there, that there's there's an entire society, community of people that have the same values, that have the same passion as we have to make those connections, to conserve the resources, to to make the impact, that that feels empower. And and I think certainly in this day and age we could we could use a little bit more of that. So Rachel, thanks so much for for being on the show here. if someone wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Rachel Franchina: Sure, yeah, they can email me, rachel.franchina, f-r-a-n-c-h-in-a at recpro.org.

Chris Lee: Wonderful.

Rachel Franchina: LinkedIn and you know, all that good stuff too.

Chris Lee: Excellent. and and we'll include some links to those. And then recpro.org is the Society of Outdoor Recreation Professionals and the podcast is Planning the Wild. So Rachel, thanks so much for what you do. Thanks for leading what appears to be a pretty incredible organization and looking forward to learning more about that competency framework and seeing how maybe that'll apply. I might have to do a little bit deeper dive into that into future episodes or in some of these trainings that I'm working on building to connect people with.

Rachel Franchina: Would love to chat again. Thank you, Chris.

Chris Lee: Alright, thanks. Take care. And for everybody listening, thanks for what you do. I appreciate you being a listener. And I certainly appreciate what you do for the resource, for the people that you serve and the communities that you do it in. I'll talk to you soon. This episode was produced by the great team at Layover Productions. Please subscribe wherever you're tuning in and follow Parks and Restoration on Facebook and Instagram. You can connect with us and other outdoor leaders by joining the next level leadership community at parksandrestoration.com.