The Born Leader and other leadership myths with Teli Van Rycke | Episode 95

speaker-0: Where do you stand on on this concept of of leaders being born just naturally? ⁓ you know, just th they have natural tendencies toward leadership versus ⁓ leaders that that can be developed or made? Where's what's your thoughts on that?

speaker-1: Well, if you would have asked me about five years ago, I probably would have told you that I was a follower and more of an observer and I was never gonna be a leader because I thought my goal was to be able to lead young people and ⁓ you know, point them on the right path or help be a facilitator for them. And so I thought that people were born one way or the other. And I think now, after my experience, I think that we are all born with maybe more tendencies or skills on a spectrum from leader to follower and we all start somewhere on the spectrum and some of us want to chip away and move to the other side and some of us are fine being where we are for maybe all of our career or part of it or whenever we have that aha moment, that's when we decide to start making our way to the other side. But I think it's all about, you know, you can make it what you want it. And if you're willing to work at leadership, you can definitely make strides because I've completely changed my view on this. So yeah, I think they're definitely cultivated their main.

speaker-0: Great parks and healthy landscapes are the products of strong leadership. This show is dedicated to helping you become that leader. This is the Parks and Restoration Podcast. We're on a mission to help you leave a legacy of healthy ecosystems, quality parks, and future generations of people who care about the natural world. Find show notes, links, and other information on our website, ParksandRestoration.com. And now, let's get to today's episode. Welcome to another episode of the Parks and Restoration Podcast. I am Chris Lee, your host, and I am joined today by a friend, a colleague, and someone I'm excited to talk to today. She spent 10 years as a junior high English teacher before making a bold career pivot. At 32, Telly Van Rickey walked away from a near-complete administrative endorsement and a career in education leadership to become a talent development program manager. I don't I'm not even sure what that is. And frankly, she didn't know exactly what that was by her own admission when she said yes to taking that job. But ⁓ that's kind of what we're gonna talk about today. That leap has turned into a three year run at the Greater Burlington Partnership, which is the organization that houses our local chamber of commerce, our our downstown Main Street program, our economic development, and our convention visitors bureau, all under the same umbrella of the partnership. She's been there ⁓ and been promoted to regional director of workforce innovation, serving two and potentially soon to be three counties here in Southeast Iowa. She's currently three years into the U.S. Chamber's Elite Four Year Institute for Organization Management, otherwise known as IOM program, and she's neck deep in workforce and leadership development for our region. She recently facilitated this leader lab program, which I attended, and ⁓ it's called the Better Culture Mindset Leadership Program. And ⁓ for more information on that, go back and listen to my episode with Brett Hoogevine, the founder ⁓ of that program. It was a fantastic program. Telly did an incredible job of facilitating that. And in addition to all of that, full disclosure here, she's also been doing some behind the scenes work for me and this show as the new director of operations for parks and restoration. LLC Telly. Welcome to the show and welcome to Parks and Restoration conglomerate, I guess, that this is, right?

speaker-1: Yeah, thank you so much, Chris. I'm honored to be here and I really just appreciate this opportunity. So and I'm excited to work with you. So thanks for having me.

speaker-0: Absolutely. All right. So ⁓ there's several things. ⁓ so ⁓ you are incredible at preparing and handling logistics and I suppose this probably goes back to all those years you spent as a teacher doing lesson planning and stuff. But ⁓ in prep for this episode, ⁓ you sent me this big long document that had a bunch of your background and stuff, which I super appreciate. ⁓ that's that's why I like having you on the team because ⁓ you're doing some of that for future podcast guesting and stuff. But there was a lot of stuff in there that I want to dig into. First one is culture, all right, organizational culture. Anybody that's ever listened to the show knows that that I'm big on organizational culture. I do all my speeches and stuff around culture. And you have said that you wouldn't leave the Greater Burlington partnership for like a ten or twenty thousand dollar raise. What is it about the partnership that makes you so committed to it?

speaker-1: That is a hard thing to pinpoint, but I think I can nail it down, narrow it down to two things. The first one is the team here and the culture that we have. It's not perfect, ⁓ but it's fantastic. We have great people here and they work really hard and they don't do a pay for a paycheck, even though we we get paid well. I'm not saying we don't, ⁓ but they work really hard for the community and for the same goal. And so that makes it fun to work on this team. And then the second one is the people. All the people like you, partners, ⁓ stakeholders and you know people who serve on our boards and help guide us and really our chamber members it's it's all about them. I tell Mac and my coworkers here sometimes like, ooh, I'm excited about today because I get to go hang out with all my friends today, whether it's a business after hours event, a roundtable discussion, a legislative event, whatever it is. ⁓ my favorite part of the day is when I get to hang out with my friends.

speaker-0: Yeah. So what I what I'm hearing there is ⁓ it's it's everybody's dedicated to the mission and it's and it's you know, it's tied back to community and I mean frankly the G VP does incredible stuff within the community and ⁓ and then it it's the people that you're surrounded with. But it's it's because they're mission driven and you know, and they're they're all high performing, dedicated type folks. ⁓ and it it's it's not the paycheck, it's not It's not the nice offices that you have overlooking the Mississippi River, which I mean, let's face it, you're right. The those views from those offices are are pretty incredible, but you didn't mention that. ⁓ you know, y y and there's all these other things that organizations often focus on as like, ⁓ we need to give these perks to our employees. No. What the what they need to do is is is like in that in that mindset leadership program.

speaker-1: It is a plus, for sure.

speaker-0: Hi high performing employees have the right to work with other high performing employees. And and it sounds like that's that's ⁓ kind of the dynamic that you guys have there. And that's that's what's really drawn you to it and and made you so dedicated to it, is that the fact that you've got high performing people around you and you're all working towards some bigger thing, right?

speaker-1: Absolutely. And it's also like you're telling me that I get to go to a lunch and learn and get paid to do that. I get to go to a networking event. And to me it feels like fun and it doesn't feel like work. I would say at least fifty to eighty percent of the time. So the work part is, you know, answering emails, which don't worry, I'm happy to do that too. But

speaker-0: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Or sitting in on podcasts. You know, maybe maybe that's one too. Yeah. ⁓ so you I wanna know ⁓ the the leaders of the organization. So you so you're hired by the previous CEO there at Greater Burlington Partnership, ⁓ Della Schmidt. And ⁓ and then now there's a ⁓ a different one there. Della took a job up in Minnesota back where she was from. ⁓ and so she left gosh, what's that been? A a year or so ago?

speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, at least a year and a half.

speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. Man, time flies. ⁓ and then and so now Amy O'Brien is a is the CO there. I wanna know what what have those two done to cultivate ⁓ the incredible culture that that exists there at Greater Burlington Partnership? I or or have they done anything? Is it just happened, you know, did they just happen to stumble into something that's got some magic going with it, or what have they done intentionally ⁓ that has helped maintain that?

speaker-1: I think if I had to like put my finger on it, I think the biggest thing that they've done is kind of come in and rethought about how things were done in the past, whether that's with positions and recreating and the structure of the Greater Bellington Partnership and the leadership and the rules here. And sometimes, you know, when someone's hired for a position, realizing that their strengths are this and maybe this program or this event or this thing ⁓ is not really a good fit for them. And so I think that. Della did a great job of laying the foundation to let's let's rethink some things, let's rethink positions, let's rethink ⁓ programs. What's the purpose? Is it still relevant? And really kind of do an audit on those things. And then she laid a really good foundation for Amy to come in. And Amy's hit the ground running with ⁓ we've done a lot of new programming, we've done a lot of new like ideas and ⁓ it's just been really great. Our our team is different. We've changed exchanged some roles. I used to facilitate Greater Burlington leadership and now ⁓ Melissa Jones, our executive director of the chamber, is doing that. So I could start leader lab. And so it's just been really nice that ⁓ I hate the saying, ⁓ because we've always done it and I don't like that at all. And so both of those leaders have really embraced that and they're like, We don't have to do it this way. What can we do different? What do you want to do? And really given us some autonomy to be creative and come up with new ideas and new things. So Mm.

speaker-0: Yeah, so it it's it's fitting the work to the people rather than than the other way around. Correct. ⁓ that I and and and so it's it's it's people centric versus you know versus mission or work centric and and ⁓ and and maybe we'll dig into this a little bit. In fact, hell let's let's just dig right into it. I I I've been struggling maybe isn't the right word, but but this this idea of So many organizations that listen to this show, you know, they're they're conservation organizations, they're they're nonprofit, ⁓ you know, they're they're support foundations, ⁓ they're they're ⁓ municipal departments, ⁓ you know, things like that. They're mission driven, right? They're they're not profit driven. ⁓ most of the folks that that listen to the show that work in conservation, that work in parks, they're they're not out to make a profit. They're they're not out to hit next quarter's shareholder report. you know, return numbers, right? And and so it's really easy to get lost in this mission first mentality, like like the the it's mission over everything and and everything we do centers around that. And and that that's great and that's noble. And that's really kind of been my philosophy for most of my life. But now that I've been in this role as a leader for for long enough, I'm I'm really beginning to to question like like the mission can't go away and the and you can't forsake the mission. The the mission is still there. But the approach to delivering on it can be different. And and it and it can be in such a way that that humans aren't the resources that you extract, the the value that you extract to deliver on the mission. It's it's humans are the resources that you cultivate to then deliver on on the mission. And that and that's it's it's a little bit of a different mindset. And it sounds like that's really kind of what has transpired there and what I have seen in a lot of the other organizations that I've talked to, that I've worked with, ⁓ that have really great cultures, that have people that are absolutely dedicated, that will not leave. It's they turn the focus first on the people because they recognize that the mission doesn't get delivered without the people. Right. And so maybe it's not mission first. Maybe it's maybe it's people first in service of the mission. What what's your thoughts on that?

speaker-1: Bingo. I think it's absolutely people first. I've never before being in this role because I didn't have the capacity or the time to. I was ⁓ you know, on from seven thirty in the morning to four o'clock in the afternoon teaching the same thing over and over to ⁓ you know, adolescents and ⁓ you know, stopping, you know, inappropriate behavior and stopping disruptions and making sure the learning was happening and I was cultivating that. And so now I've realized that really everything starts with relationships. You have to it well in education I had to build relationships with kids and eighth graders are not easy to necessarily build relationships with, especially to begin. You have to earn their respect. And a lot of adults think that, you know, kids should give respect first and then ⁓ you know, they'll give it, but it really goes the other way around. If you wanna survive in the field of teaching or in anything else, you've got to give that respect. And I think that's also how you earn it. And that's the same way in any other industry in my opinion. You've you've really got to work on that relationships part before you do anything else. Because if people respect you and they like you and they, you know, think that you, you know, are trustworthy, then they're gonna believe in what you believe in. They might join your mission, they're gonna join your efforts, even if you don't work for the same organization or company. So that's what I've learned.

speaker-0: Yeah. Or on the flip side, they may recruit you to be part of their mission, which as I understand that's what Della did, getting you pulling you out of the world of education into the world of of nonprofit and and economic development, ⁓ workforce development. ⁓ to ⁓ walk me through that. Like how how did that go? Like like you know, like that I mean that's a that's a huge leap. You were a decade into into, you know, moving up in administration, like you're on your way to, you know, moving into the into the administration office and and ⁓ and then you y you jump ship because, you know, some crazy CEO from the Greater Roman partnership was like, Hey, you should come over here and work here like

speaker-1: Warp. That was crazy at the time. And it's quite a crazy story looking back on it now. ⁓ you know, I've already had a master's degree. I was really excited about, you know, hopefully becoming a curriculum director at some point. And I knew that you have to start, especially in Iowa, as like an assistant principal and get some of that under your belt. And I was about three classes away. And Della had been coming into my classroom for the last two years, and she did this thing called CEO in the classroom, which I get to do now. ⁓ we call it community leaders in the classroom because not everyone's a CEO. Maybe they're an executive director or, you know, bank president or something else or VP. and you know, I just really enjoyed watching her like, you know, relate to the kids. She was so good at it and she doesn't have any education background. And so I'm like, ⁓ look at this business CEO lady coming in. She's so cool. Like, wow, they relate to her and you know, she just she's got it figured out. And so, ⁓ you know, I enjoyed having her and She sent me an email and she's like, Have you ⁓ ever considered being a talent development program manager? And I was like, ⁓ I'm not sure what that is, but I'm, you know, happy to listen to it, hear about it, and maybe explore some opportunities. Because at that point I just wasn't sure what my next goal was. I knew I wanted to move up. I knew ⁓ I love teaching edu in education, I love teaching reading, but I wanted a flexible schedule. I wanted ⁓ you know, to build my own schedule. I wanted to be in charge of things and I wanted to work with multiple people and just be a part of something a little bit bigger at that time. And so I just didn't know what it was yet. ⁓ so funny thing was, then ⁓ I don't know, maybe a couple weeks later before I interviewed, I was getting ready. It was the evening before my interview, and the school day was over and I was getting ready to leave. ⁓ actually, before I was getting ready to leave. ⁓ Dustin Roth, who's my coworker now here at the partnership. He's our marketing communications director, and Melissa Jones, who was the interim in my position at the time. She is now our chamber executive director. ⁓ were at our school and they were teaching some of our teachers how to use our VR virtual reality career exploration headsets. They were brand new and they were piloting them. And so I'm like, ooh, yeah, let me try them out. So I took them and I was like, I didn't tell them, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I have an interview with their boss tomorrow morning. ⁓ and I put two and two together at like the last minute and I ended up taking this job, which Melissa had come to train me on in my teaching role. Does that make any sense? So and then I ended up being the one facilitating that program, including the CEO in the classroom and the virtual reality career exploration headsets when I got hired.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm. ⁓ cool. Funny how life kinda goes full circle sometimes.

speaker-1: Absolutely. That's what I was saying. So I think it was meant to be.

speaker-0: Right. ⁓ well yeah, and and so I think that's that's a an interesting point in that, you know, Adela could have did the whole, you know, job listing and and taking applications and stuff, but she she saw something in you that was like, Okay, this this person could be a really great fit for this position and and accomplishing our mission of workforce development. ⁓ and and I know at the time she was ⁓ very much focused on on kind of regionalizing it and ⁓ and it was really focused on ⁓ reaching deeply down, like way down into the talent pipeline. And so, you know, I I mean I guess thinking about it that way, it does kind of make sense to to think about okay, what could we get a teacher to do this, you know, because they they got connections in into the world of education. But ⁓ you know, she she could have just put the job application out there, but but no, she recruited. She she saw an opportunity to maybe get somebody in and said, Hey, why why don't you come consider this? And and as I understand it, it was not just like a hey, come look at this and you're like, okay, yeah, I'll take the job. Like it was it was a couple different times you stopped in to learn about it and and talked to her. And you know, she really kind of gave you the space to to to really kind of think about it and make sure it was it was the right move for you. ⁓ Walk me through kind of how that went and and and her approach to that and why that worked so well to peel you out of education and get you into the role that she was gunning to get you into.

speaker-1: She really did give me the space and the opportunity because I would told her I was hesitant. You know, I was honestly scared of what my parents were gonna say. Like, yeah, I was a grown adult, but you know, I had spent all of this time and money and education almost two masters later. And I mean, I paid for ⁓ all of it and I'm almost done finally paying on all of that. ⁓ thank goodness. But congratulations. ⁓ I was still scared for them to be like, you know, we told you they both worked in manufacturing when I grew up and they'd said, You have to go to college to be successful. You do not want to live a life like us. We want better for you. And so all they knew was that I needed to go to college because they didn't. And so I think that that was ⁓ then. But anyway, ⁓ so I told Della, I'm like, you know what, this sounds great and I've I don't know anything about business. ⁓ I've only known teaching my whole life. I ⁓ told my class ⁓ when I was in eighth grade president for student council I was gonna be a teacher when I grew up and I already knew about it. And so this is really hard for me to make this decision. She's like, Well, why don't you just think about it for a little bit? The school year doesn't end for six more weeks and ⁓ why don't you come in and you can look at the office and spend a little bit of time here and I'll set you up with a couple of the staff to spend some time with without me around and you can ask all the questions you want. You can ⁓ check out. Why don't you just come here and and hang out and see what it's like here? And I was like, Okay, well could that hurt, right? That's not a big deal. So I did and I took like a half a day off of work and went and did that and I got to ask all the questions. I'm like, Why do you like to work here? And I felt really comfortable and everyone talked highly of their job and so I was like, you know what? This is I think this I think I'm going to do it. I went home and I talked to my husband, boyfriend at the time and he's like, If this is what you want to do, I think you should go for it. And so I just closed my eyes and jumped right on in. Yes. It was great. Best decision ever.

speaker-0: Well that yeah, I mean that's that's awesome. ⁓ and yeah, I mean some people will listen to this, be like, ⁓ well, you know, that's fantastic, but I I don't have six weeks to, you know, vet a single person in the hopes that maybe they'll jump ship and come over here. But maybe you do.

speaker-1: Well that was the thing. Della found the right person and she was willing to wait till school got out. I was under contract until May twenty seventh and my first day was June first. So I had the weekend off and I was ready for work on that next Monday. So I got double paychecks though, so that was pretty good.

speaker-0: Yeah. So much for that summer break, right? ⁓ well that's that's that works all right. Yeah. But what it what I'm hearing there is what she did in in intentionally or not was she gave you the opportunity to get a sense of belonging. You know, she's like, here, come on, hang out at the office, talk to the staff. I won't even be around, you know, no pressure. Just, you know, get it get a sense for whether or not you feel like you could belong here.

speaker-1: And I was shocked. I couldn't believe it.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And and and you know, I I keep seeing this this research and and you know, hearing all of these, you know, great minds in the leadership space talk about how important that is of how how do you create the conditions for people to feel like this is this is where they're supposed to be, like like this is my habitat, this is my ecosystem. I I belong in this place. ⁓ and and that was one of the ways that that she did it. And so I think there's a there's a fantastic lesson there. for organization leaders is, you know, I I'm I'm fascinated, maybe maybe not fascinated, I am constantly reconsidering the hiring process because I think the traditional hiring process is broken big time. And so ⁓ you know I'm constantly questioning how how can we do this better? And and I'm and I'm seeing some some inklings of of some some light here in that you know, man, what what if what if it wasn't just the traditional post a job and and see what kind of applicants you get? What what if it was really just connecting to the community and and getting to know some of the other people around you and then be like, hey, you could you could come over here, you know, and ⁓ and then obviously she had to sell you on the mission. Well sure, yeah. Right. And so, you know, then there again, it it becomes it comes people first.

speaker-1: Yeah, of course. But that was easy.

speaker-0: in service of the mission. And and so then by getting the right people, you know, you go back to to Jim Collins and and the book Good to Great and everything, he talks about getting the right people on the bus in the right seats. And so, you know, that's exactly what she was doing, was she's getting the right right person on the on the bus and then getting it in the right seat, like, you know, talent talent development, ⁓ and then, you know, moving up into workforce regional development director that you are now. ⁓ you know, and and it was it was actually building the seats to to fit the person and then then that's delivering on the mission. I d just I I think that's that's awesome. ⁓ all right, I want to shift gears here a little bit. So ⁓ one of the things that that has come up is this I feel it's a myth of the born leader. All right, I want to pick your brain up ⁓ about this because I know you're a leadership junkie like I am. Where do you stand on on this concept of of leaders being born

speaker-1: Yeah, thank you.

speaker-0: just naturally ⁓ you know, just they they have natural tendencies toward leadership versus ⁓ leaders that that can be developed or made. Where's what's your thoughts on that?

speaker-1: Well, if you would have asked me about five years ago, I probably would have told you that I was a follower and more of an observer and I was never gonna be a leader because I thought my goal was to be able to lead young people and ⁓ you know, point them on the right path or help be a facilitator for them. And so I thought that people were born one way or the other, and I think now, after my experience, I think that we are all born with maybe more tendencies or skills on a spectrum from leader to follower and we all start somewhere on the spectrum and some of us want to chip away and move to the other side and some of us are fine being where we are for maybe all of our career or part of it or whenever we have that aha moment, that's when we decide to start making our way to the other side. But I think it's all about, you know, you can make it what you want it. And if you're willing to work at leadership, you can definitely make strides because I've completely changed my view on this. So yeah, I think they're definitely cultivated, they're made.

speaker-0: Ready to take your leadership to the next level? Join the Next Level Leadership Community at parksandrestoration.com. You'll get practical leadership insights and exclusive invitations to live meetups and trainings. Be part of the movement we're creating. Join the Next Level Leadership Community at parksandrestoration.com. So so what changed for you to to have that mind shi mind mind shift? Jeez. ⁓ we'll cut that one out. ⁓ have the mind shift of going from ⁓ you know, this is I I I just do this, ⁓ you I'm a I'm a follower, I'm I'm not a like an organization leader, ⁓ to yeah, I I you know, I am interested in this leadership thing. I want to develop my leadership abilities. Was it like was there a particular moment that did that or was it kind of a a a slow burn?

speaker-1: think it's because I was always ⁓ I don't want to say an expert in my field but you know very knowledgeable about education and ⁓ I continued, you know, staying on top of the latest things and I wanted to be a great teacher. ⁓ and then I come into this new field where I'm not the expert and I'm like the novice and I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna sit back and kind of, you know, fake it till I make it and go through as much professional development and learn from others and tie myself to people who do have it figured out and who I respect and are knowledgeable. And I'm gonna learn as much as I can. And so I think it was somewhere along that process where I used to feel like an imposter and fake it until I make it. And then somewhere along the way, ⁓ with the thirst for knowledge and learning and to become that expert in this field, which I'm not an expert, I'm not saying that by mean, but making my way over to the the leadership side and ⁓ getting more knowledgeable, I feel much more confident and it just kind of happened organically. I think I'm intrinsically motivated always to be a learner and to develop and That's just part of who I am. My parents were very hard workers and, you know, always provided my mom was a single mom and she made ten dollars an hour and I never went without anything. And my dad never missed a day of work and he's, you know, ⁓ getting in his late sixties and he wants to work until his seventies because he just loves working and so and he likes his job at Alcoa. ⁓ but I think that that's just ingrained in me. So it just kind of happened by accident, I guess.

speaker-0: Mm. So what I'm hearing there is you you did a a great job of taking what your your particular innate ability or or your innate wiring and then and then applying that to to success. So, you know, ⁓ a a strong work ethic. It's you know, it sounds like you've had that for for the longest time and we're gonna talk more about that here in a minute. and and s then the the the the thirst for knowledge, like what like wanting to to constantly learn and get better and being an expert in your field, it sounds like you've probably had that from the get go, you know, I ever even probably before you were a teacher, ⁓ you know, you you wanted to to at least from a from a knowledge standpoint, ⁓ be an expert in the field. And so then by applying those and cultivating those, as you develop the knowledge and as you develop the confidence, then that gives you then the confidence and the desire then to step up into a into a leadership role. And I and I think there's there's really great lessons there of, you know, like I I I've debated this idea of like are, you know, are are people just born leaders? You know, and I think back to school and, you know, there's there's those people in class that that you know, they were always the class president. They were always the, you know, the student council president or whatever. And like like they were the leaders. Like they they're just

speaker-1: Exactly.

speaker-0: They were always in front of the class, like like everybody knew their name and ⁓ you know, w was that you?

speaker-1: was a little more quiet. I wasn't like the obnoxious, like everyone knows that the that I would be the leader. No, I was more of like the one sitting back and turning in and getting, you know, I was the teacher's pet, but the quieter one where every once in a while I might ⁓ you know raise my hand and give an answer if nobody else would for sure. But ⁓ I definitely wasn't the first one or, you know, in the front of the line being the leader. I was kind of more obser I was observant. And I feel like that's been part of my life. I'm gonna watch everyone else and learn from other people until I feel confident and then I'm going to step up and and, you know, get to the front of the line and lead the group. So

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And so it I think people confuse leadership with extroversion. I agree. And ⁓ yeah.

speaker-1: I always wanted to be an extrovert. I thought that that was a desirable quality and it was a leadership quality. And I'm like, how can I be more like that?

speaker-0: Yeah. Right. And and I and I think that's what we see is that like, you know, like we well, there's these leaders. There's the class president. Well, it's not it's not that they are necessarily born leaders. It's just they have more extroverted tender tendencies. They don't mind being in front of the group. They don't mind having their name on the student council ballot. They you know, they don't mind being in front of everyone. In fact they they derive energy from that and you know, and being out there and glad handing and and you know, and doing the the campaigning. That that that's not necessarily leadership. It it they they're just wired for extroversion and they they get energy from doing that versus the introverts are like, ⁓ dear God, like don't don't make me stand in front of the class. Like I and I I don't wanna I don't wanna do a campaign speech like

speaker-1: And I was in the middle.

speaker-0: Yeah. So somewhere. ⁓ God, I was I was on the the introverted end of the spectrum. You ⁓ you couldn't pay me. And I know you and that this is the funny thing. In fact, one of my old classmates, I just bumped into her at the coffee shop. ⁓ she ⁓ Molly that works down there at the bean counter coffee shop I go to quite bit. ⁓ she was in my in my class and we had classes together my whole life growing up and she was commenting on this whole River Days thing that I do, you know, where I wear the

speaker-1: Where were you at in the class? ⁓ really?

speaker-0: the white suit and the or the white suit jacket and the hat and I'm all all over these social media videos. And she's like, you know, back in school, could you have ever imagined doing something like this? And I I said, you couldn't have paid me to do something like this. Like I it was it was pulling teeth to get me to to give a speech in front of the class. ⁓ like no, I absolutely not. And yet, you know, and yet now here I am. I you I do keynote speeches for crime. I literally just did a keynote speech for a company last week. And ⁓ so yeah, I ⁓ so I guess it's not like I'm clearly not a born leader, but you know, I I am in a leadership role now and I I think I'm being fairly successful at it. And and so I think this concept of born leader is it's a confusion of personality traits. It's not necessarily that they're a leader. Le ⁓ leadership ability can be cultivated. It can be learned.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's incredible. And Adam Grant in his book Think Again, which I just read for our leadership book class, ⁓ he talks about the armchair quarterback, which is, you know, maybe the quarterback, sorry to for any stereotypes, but the quarterback who doesn't understand the plays and he's just athletic and he's just popular. And then you have the imposter who actually does know things, ⁓ but they have this imposter syndrome. And so these are two ends of the spectrum. And he's like, You want to be in the middle. You don't want to be either one of these, ⁓ because the imposter syndrome can hinder. your ability to do the things that you can do and then the imposter syndrome can, you know, hurt the team or whatever else because you don't know what you're doing. And so ⁓ I think he really explains that really well in that section of his book. It's pretty good.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. You bring up a good point. So imposter syndrome. ⁓ I know, you know, certainly I've struggled with that. ⁓ I know I know you have, and ⁓ almost everybody I've ever talked to has. ⁓ I mean it it's it's almost just it's like it's standard. Where where do you fall on on either the value of it or ⁓ getting through it?

speaker-1: Well, I felt like an imposter all day getting ready to come ⁓ to this podcast because I didn't know that anyone would want to hear about what I my experience or what I've gone through, because to me it's not, you know, anything crazy. ⁓ but I like that I'm more aware of it now. Before I just thought of it back in my head seeing like I'm a fraud, I've I'm you know, faking it until I make it, I'm trying to figure things out. And these people have it all together. They know what they're doing, they're confident, they they have it figured out, they don't even flinch when it comes to a decision. And I'm over here like, ⁓ my goodness, you know, I gotta like, I have my list of pros and cons, and I'm trying to, you know, make sure I don't make the wrong decision. And so, ⁓ no, I feel really good about it and I think it's something that we need to talk about. ⁓ people don't have it together. You go ask probably any CEO, and they are always confident in their decisions, but I do think that if you, you know, consult in your team sometimes when there are experts in areas. So for example, like Crystal, she's our finance director. And, you know, sometimes if I'm making a decision about a program or whatever, I'm gonna say, here's what I have for my numbers. What do you have? Let's compare. And do you think this is a good should we continue this program? Is it making money? Like I'm gonna consult in people who are more of experts than me to make the decision. It doesn't mean that I have to know everything. So I just know where to seek out the right information to make the best informed decision.

speaker-0: Yeah. So seeing it for what it is. ⁓ And

speaker-1: It's like parenting, right? That's what I hear anyway.

speaker-0: ⁓ absolutely. Yeah. ⁓ you'll yeah, you'll find that out at at some point, I'm sure. But like No, y but it's that it's that way with everything. Like like nothing is written in stone and and everything you do is gonna you know, even if it's the same thing that somebody else has done, it's it's different because it's you, right? And and so yeah, there's there's always going to be that that little bit of doubt and I I I think, you know, like what we what we talked earlier is is it's a matter of cultivating that confidence. Like How can you either A, get more knowledge to to help you be a little bit more confident in your decisions and then ⁓ and then sometimes it's just a matter of faith of like, I I okay, I just I'm just gonna have to trust that I gotta make this decision and then know that whatever the outcome is, I'm I can deal with it, right? And and that probably just comes from time and experience. But you said about surrounding yourself with with people and and kind of bouncing ideas off those. And you know, you had mentioned ⁓ that you like being around people that can elevate you. ⁓ so yeah, talk to me about that a little bit and and how you've how you've cultivated that dynamic.

speaker-1: Yeah, so I don't know. I just, you know, a lot of t people say they like to be around like-minded people. And I don't necessarily like to be around like-minded people. I would rather pair myself with people who I see as a mentor to me or as someone where I want to be. And so, I'm almost everyone I've met is willing to like help other people and teach them what they know. And so, ⁓ yeah, I I think sometimes it's a little selfish. I do it for myself, but I'm always willing to give back. Like I'm willing to do things for them as well. It's a two-way street. ⁓ but I feel like I learned best. I used to learn best from other teachers who'd been teaching a long time. And, you know, especially when it came to classroom management and being a young teacher at the time and a woman with eighth graders, eighth grade boys were tough sometimes, let me tell you. Don't get me wrong. I have some great memories and some great students, many, many great students. Almost like, you know, over a thousand. But ⁓ you know, I think that's where it all comes from is that right there. So yeah. I don't know.

speaker-0: So there's there's a couple things you said in here that I really want to dig into and I and I know you knew these were coming. ⁓ so you said that ⁓ you know, you you like surrounding yourself with with mentors and ⁓ but then you know you you kinda backpedal and it's like, you know, I I kinda feel like that's selfish. ⁓ or that, you know, it's a self serving thing. and and I you're not the only one I've I've I've heard say stuff like this. ⁓ and and we're gonna dig into why I think this is psychoanalyze this a little bit, but ⁓ I I would I would push back on that a little bit. So like if if you were serving as a mentor to someone else, do you feel that you're doing that that them getting mentored by you is selfish on their part?

speaker-1: No, I don't think that at all. I'm I'm definitely willing to do that. That's part of like who I am. I'm a servant leader. I know that about myself. ⁓ and don't get me wrong, I'm working on trying to be different kinds of leaders, ⁓ styles, I guess leadership styles in different situations, but that's just the core of like who I am. So no, I would never think that. But I I actually physically go out and seek that to help me improve. Like a lot of people, like I would be like, ⁓ I want to mentor you, or how would you like, you know, I'm more of the person to initiate those kinds of things. And I will do that to help myself. See, just saying it sounds really bad, I think, but ⁓ I will I'm not scared to go out and ask for people to mentor me. I want that, I crave it, I need it. ⁓ and I feel like that's the fastest way I'm gonna move up. I can read a million books and don't get me wrong, books are great and I've taken away some great things even in the past like three months in this new leadership book club that I'm in. ⁓ but it's so different when you learn it from someone in, you know, in the field that's lived it, done it, made mistakes already, and you can just pick up kind of where they left off with that. It's it's it's pretty incredible. It's like fast tracking in my opinion.

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, for sure. And and I think there's going to be more more demand and more value in the the in person, ⁓ whether it's mentorship or just community. ⁓ the more as like, you know, AI systems become ubiquitous and you know, more people are just turning their phones to brainstorm and to share their inner feelings. ⁓ I think there's going to be increasing an increasing demand and increasing value to that actual human connection. And you're you're absolutely right. There, you know, you can't i it's immeasurable the difference between, you know, studying and reading and and, you know, and and learning in that sense versus actually just spending time with people that are out there killing it and figuring it out as they go and and you know and and learning from them that, you know, are maybe in a place you want to be later on. The ⁓ the the interesting thing here, you you you talk about just like, ⁓ just saying that kind of kinda sounds selfish. I go out and I seek mentors. I mean, y you read any like like like the the leadership guidance out there is to surround yourself with with mentors. You know, I mean like Tim Ferris wrote an entire book, two books, Tribe of Mentors. They're they're behind me somewhere. ⁓ and, you know, and it's just all about like surrounding himself and that's why he, you know, he by his own admission. That's why he started his podcast, which has got, I don't know, several hundred episodes now. And he just he talks to some of the highest performers in the world and just tries to glean stuff from them. That's, you know, it's really no different. They they say you're the average of the five people you're closest to, so, you know, make sure that those five people are are are lifting you up. And so I I I think if it was the type of deal where you were just like trying to to, you know, hook your train car to their engine and ride their coattails into success, that would be selfish. But If you're just trying to learn from them, I mean, people love sharing their knowledge. People people love teaching the next generation and and helping others succeed. And you're you're you're doing them a favor too. I think what I'm what is happening here is this gets back to working genius. And ⁓ and I wanted to to talk about this because I I've talked about working genius on this podcast before. so I had you do the working genius assessment when we were considering working together. And ⁓ you are so your working genius is opposite mine. So ⁓ you have enablement and galvanizing as your working geniuses. So

speaker-1: And I was offended when I first read that because I am not an enabler. I think of like, you know, someone who is maybe an alcoholic or a drug addict and you're an enabler. So I really had to like, you know, beat myself through that a little bit and work th work through that.

speaker-0: First thought. And and yeah, y you y you gotta kinda understand the the nuance and the and the description of of that. ⁓ what that really means is you get energy from helping others succeed. Right. I mean, that's why you were drawn to teaching, right? Like like helping eighth graders succeed in class. Like I mean, I've heard you tell stories of, you know, of of some of the experiences you've had in class and I can I can just like literally see the energy from ya ⁓ and you know, and then ⁓ you know in in some of the talks that we've had of of like how are we going to grow the podcast and stuff like that, like like it's you get a lot of energy from from helping others succeed. and and so it's so it's it's other focused, right? And I I think because that's part of part of your wiring, that idea of others helping you succeed, it it triggers like this this selfish concept. That you got like, well, you know, I'm I I exist to help others succeed, but for that to come back to me, like that's kind of opposite of right. And and so it is, is it's just it's part of that wiring. And and this is why I wanted to have this have this conversation, is is I have found so much value in this working genius thing. And I think if more leaders would and it it doesn't have to be working genius, but if more leaders would focus on understanding the people around them. And and and like like how are they wired and how does that show up in the way that they are or in the way that they think or in the way that they in the way that they do the do their work. ⁓ it's it almost becomes like a superpower to understand how then to connect them to the work that they are most excited about. And I think that's what's happened with with you getting with the greater productive partnership is that you like your entire role is to help others succeed. And and you know, it's a workforce development, right? So you're helping companies find workers and you're developing the next the next generation of workforce, right? Like that's all right up your wiring is, you know, because you because you've got this this enablement and then galvanizing is like, you know, come on, let's go, let's go do this. Let's succeed. Let's kick some ass. ⁓ and and yeah, it's ⁓ which is you know it's it's totally different from mine, my ⁓ working frustrations are enablement and galvanizing. And so so having you on my team is hopefully gonna help me out with that quite a bit. I exactly. Yeah. So, you know, you're you're gonna be a a mentor for me and that's that's very selfish on my part and I'm perfectly fine with that.

speaker-1: Grow too. Perfect, me too. Two more things about that though. ⁓ also you can use the working genius really to figure out how you can connect with those people who are tougher to connect with. That's kind of what I've learned. Like, ⁓ you know, let's just say, for example, ⁓ not saying that this happens, but you know, I get an email from my boss that says, ⁓ check this out, check out this program, check out this grant. And what she's saying, or if if she's saying this, she is, ⁓ what she's saying is, ⁓ I just have the time to look at this. I think you I want you to be aware of it. I know you're busy. And what I'm seeing is like, ⁓ here's some more work for you to do. And so but now I know that she really just wants to send ideas my way because she's more of an idea person. And I'm more of the like carry out the programs and organi you know, organization and stuff like that. And so she loves to be the one to just bring new ideas. And she doesn't expect me to carry out every single thing that comes, you know, from her. But ⁓ I can appreciate that now and I understand it. So I can connect with her better than getting frustrated about it. So

speaker-0: It well, exactly. And and the risk there when you know, when you're the boss and you do something like that because the because my geniuses ⁓ are are invention and wonder. So ⁓ I'm I'm very much like like your boss, Amy, in that ⁓ that invention genius is always like it's it's ideas, it's ideas. And so you'll come across something like, ⁓ that's cool. I I gotta I gotta send that out to my team. I gotta I gotta tell my team about this or I've got this idea and I you know, I throw this idea out to the team and and constantly asking the big questions, you know, which has kind of been this whole episode, like, you know Are leaders born, like asking these big questions. But when a when the boss walks in and throws ideas out there, the team can take it of like, ⁓ the boss wants us to do that. So so let's go do that.

speaker-1: And probably a lot more than not think that, just so you know. Yeah.

speaker-0: Right. Well, and especially when when the team is is more wired towards enablement or galvanizing. You know, 'cause like you, your your tendency is going to be like, okay, let's go get this done for the success of the organization. You know, so enablement is I want to help others succeed, and galvanizing is I want to rally others to go get things done. So like, come on, team, let's go, let's go knock this idea out that she just sent us, right? And so it it's it's a tool for building language around. And so now you can just respond to that email like, hey, you're right. This is a really cool idea. Is this something you want me to work on right now? And you know, and she might be like, ⁓ no. I I I just kind of wanted to get this on your radar and in, you know, in case this was something you wanted to pursue or or whatever. And it boom, like problem solved. And I and I've run into this too many times than than I should admit at work. Like I'll come in, I'll throw some idea around, and then all of a sudden my team's working on it. Like, what are you guys doing? And like, well, you told us to do this. And I No, it was it was an idea. Like, You know, maybe it's something we want to think about in the future. Like ⁓ well

speaker-1: Appreciate that 'cause I don't always have the capacity to start like, ⁓ what's something new we could do? Let me just sit here and with the extra time in my day and think about new things. And so, you know, some of my newest things have come from, you know, my boss's Amy's ideas, which I appreciate. And so I'm just learning how to, you know, take that in, I guess. Right.

speaker-0: Yeah, and and I mean f for an organization to be successful, you need the whole spectrum of of of working genius. You need all six geniuses ⁓ to to come into play. And ⁓ and so yeah, you know, you gotta have somebody that's this asking the big questions, coming up with the ideas, and then you need somebody that's gonna galvanize the team around it and then, you know, help the team succeed around it, and then you're gonna need the the people that can actually go and and see it all the way through and get it done. ⁓ and ⁓ yeah, so anyway, that we've we've beat that. dead horse to death again. Yes. ⁓ all right. I wanna I want to close on this. ⁓ I wanna I want to close on on discipline here. ⁓ so you credit your workout regimen. So so ⁓ you are are dedicated to to working out you and ⁓ you credit that to some of your success. ⁓ my my question is do you think it's it's the it's the working out. It's actually going to the gym and you know and lifting the weights or you know the actual working out part. Or simply the fact that you maintain the discipline to show up every day and and do that thing. You know, I what what I'm wondering about this is like could discipline be developed via other activities, you know, that that's maybe not hitting the gym and working out? ⁓ and and do you think it would be as effective? What what's your thoughts on that?

speaker-1: My short answer is I think it can be effective without it necessarily being the gym or the physical aspect of ⁓ being disciplined. But for me, ⁓ I think that this has been the way that I've been able to be disciplined, I guess. And I also do believe that people who are very successful who don't work out and don't really value fitness and are disciplined in that area, I think it could elevate them even more. So a simple answer is I think that being disciplined in the gym and your fitness and in your health can elevate you no matter where you are. Do I think that it means that you can't be successful unless you have it? No, I don't think that at all. ⁓ but I this is one way that I've learned. You know, it just pours into every part of my life. If I go, I get to the gym, I wake up at three thirty in the morning, I get there at four fifteen, I work out till about six o'clock. ⁓ I lift weights, I I start with running. ⁓ I walk on an incline or, you know, like on the stairmaster at the end, I lift heavy. I can deadlift two hundred and eighty-five pounds and, you know, bench press over my body weight and ⁓ I actually have muscles and so I just feel really good and it's a way to see like tangible results of success. And then I go to work and I'm happy and I have more energy and I'm productive and I feel this sense of confidence that I am enough and I'm as good as the other people in the room when I'm talking to CEOs, business owners, ⁓ state legislator leaders, ⁓ you know, even federal leaders from, you know, that we that we have visited here and stuff like that. And so I think it really helps me with the imposter syndrome. And it also really just trickles into the other parts of my life. You know, I I feel like I'm better partner at home. I feel, you know, sometimes you have to let some things slide a little bit. Like I used to be a huge clean freak and You know, now my house might be just a little bit messy at times. And that's okay because I work really hard ⁓ at the gym in the morning and I work really hard at work and then I come home and it that's family time and you know, we're making dinner and we're spending time together and and so I've had to learn to really focus and hone in on a couple of things to keep that discipline and let some things slide where, you know, are applicable. So and that's really attributed my to my success, I believe. I have people, this is really bad and shallow in my opinion, but people just respect you. by how you look and ⁓ like if you're strong. Like people come up to that don't even know me and they're like, Wow like basically all my respect. Like that's amazing. You're incredible and I'm like, ⁓ thank you, but ⁓ you know, at work I feel like I'm more incredible, but thank you, you know? It's

speaker-0: Yeah. You don't even know me. Yeah.

speaker-1: So it's just that's just how we are, right? Your body is your advertisement, I guess.

speaker-0: Yeah. Well, ⁓ most everybody listening has now tuned out after you threw out those stats, ⁓ because none of us can even compare to those. And so now we all feel bad about ourselves. ⁓ if you're listening to this, folks, I agree with you. I feel terrible about myself too. Telly is actually not human. She is actually a machine. and yeah. But no, I I I think that's that's fantastic. And and you are absolutely right. ⁓ you know, that that there's there's a lot of Lot of something to be said for that confidence that comes from ⁓ being strong and and being healthy. ⁓ the the energy that comes from that. ⁓ you know, just in in in in in so many dynamics. ⁓ I you know, I'm I'm not a gym rat. ⁓ I've I've tried to maintain a a workout regimen for the last whatever two or three years. I've I've done okay in that like I generally will will get a workout in like once a week and I'll get a run in once a week and and I as far as I'm concerned, you know, being a forty four year old dad of two, that's a win. Like like if I get you know, one little lift down in my little home gym in my basement and then you know, I I've taken to running once a week with the with the team at work. ⁓ right after work, we just we change clothes real quick and we go run the trails at the ⁓ at the park.

speaker-1: And I think that looks different for everybody, right? That's my preference is, you know, different. And my husband is an avid weightlifter and he's very strong and so we have a competition. It's like I wanna I work out because I have a husband who's strong and works out and I I feel like we, you know, we get to do that together. So

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, and and so that that helps a ton. ⁓ you know, so now you got that support system. It's it's something you can do together. you know, versus me, like if I'm gonna do it, it's it's something I'm going to, you know, separate myself from the family to go do. Although ⁓ my eight year old has taken to come coming downstairs and pushing some weights with me. He ⁓ he wants to be a soccer star, so he's gotta build those abs, he says. But

speaker-1: You better start working.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. It's just it's it's how do you fit it into your li into your life, you know, and and that that looks different f for for everybody. ⁓ and it it got it it got me to thinking, like, there's this adage, how you do anything is how you do everything. And and I and I have used that. ⁓ I've used it at work. In fact, I think, you know, earlier this year was ⁓ I I I used that and I'm like, you know, we we need to I remember what the context was, but ⁓ I I use that very thing, like ⁓ how we do anything is how we do everything. So if we're if we're not doing this to the to the f full extreme that we could be doing it, then we're forsaking everything else. But I I don't know that I believe it. So w I don't know. What what do you think about that?

speaker-1: I think I kind of explained it with like, you know, the house. Some things have to lack. Like how you do anything. How you do anything that's important to you is how you do everything, I think, mostly. But there are some things that you can't do. You're not super human, right? We're not these, you know, beings that can do everything. So I don't know. I think that like generally speaking, like I do lots of things very similarly with the same kind of ⁓ approach, I guess you could say. Like I'm very organized and whether I'm ⁓ you know, organizing the house or the closets usually or if I'm organizing my office is a little bit messy, but you know, ⁓ organizing a career fair, but I don't know, sometimes I, you know, slack a little bit at home or in other areas that aren't as important at the time. So you gotta prioritize. I don't think you can do everything equally. So I I think it's a little outdated is what I'm gonna say.

speaker-0: Yeah, I'd and I I would agree with you. I you know, I you're right. It's just prioritization. The the the important things they they need your attention. And and how you do those, you know, how how you do any one of the important things probably translates to how you do the other important things. But how you do the unimportant things doesn't necessarily just translate how to how you're going to to do the important stuff and and and so it's a it's a matter of degree and it's and it's a matter of priority. ⁓ I think just taking it at face value that that i it doesn't work. I I think we should just kill that one. That that should just go away.

speaker-1: It sounds like a plane.

speaker-0: Let's close this out. ⁓ one last question here. What is one thing, one key takeaway that you would recommend to an aspiring or current leader? ⁓ something that they do ⁓ to improve how they lead? It could be, you know, something they do, it could be a different way of thinking about something, whatever. What what would be your suggestion there?

speaker-1: There's so many things. But I really think it's kind of funny because this seems pretty basic and common knowledge and makes sense, like, ⁓ yeah, duh. ⁓ but I really just think all leaders, whatever level they're at, should really try to be the leader that they want. ⁓ and so, you know, they can criticize their current leader, their their previous bosses, everything else. But instead of whining and complaining, why don't they start acting like the leader they want to have? And set the example for others around them and along with, you know, professional development and learning and continuous growth, but be the leader that they want to have.

speaker-0: Mm. I like that. Yeah. And and that kind of that kind of jives with I think ⁓ what Brett said, Brett Hoogavine, ⁓ when I talked to him was like you have to define what is leadership for you. Right? Like like like what does that actually look like? And and then then you know what to strive toward. So it's it's it's perfectly in alignment with with that and with some of the the biggest thinkers out there. So yes, but be be the leader that that you would want to See, ⁓ I like that a bunch. Tell you this has been fun.

speaker-1: Be the change that you want to see in the world. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. It's a it's a good ⁓ good play on that. So ⁓ tell you this has been fun. I looking forward to working with you, having you ⁓ help with this venture that we've got going here with parks and restoration. and and ⁓ following you on all the work that you do. ⁓ if somebody wanted to get in touch with you or to learn more about you, where would they go?

speaker-1: ⁓ they can go to greaterburlington dot com and my it's just T van Ricky at greater burlington dot com if you want to email me. So ⁓ yeah.

speaker-0: Excellent. All right. And ⁓ I I think you're probably findable on on LinkedIn. Listener, thanks for all you do. And I know that ⁓ a lot of times your work goes unrecognized, especially this time of year. Man, we parks and conservation people are busy. It is it we are in the thick of it. And just know that I I feel for you out there and I'm thinking about ya and I do appreciate everything you do. And I encourage you to, as you're driving from one fire to the other, think about what's the leader you want to be. And ⁓ hopefully we can play a role in helping you become that. Talk to you next time. Take care.

speaker-1: It's Chris.

speaker-0: This episode was produced by the great team at Layover Productions. Please subscribe wherever you're tuning in and follow Parks and Restoration on Facebook and Instagram. You can connect with us and other outdoor leaders by joining the next level leadership community at parksandrestoration.com.